And next, Syria?

[Casually Red]

cheers. Putin's notorious for this kind of stuff, you never really leave the KGB. He moved Barack Obama 5 seats down the line at the opening meeting of the G20 apparently at the last minute I had heard, opted to be seated next to Mexico instead iirc. Or the story from the US wikileaks cables, about how he got his big nasty rottweiler dog to come onstage with Angela Merkel (who has a fear of dogs after being attacked by one as a child) to intimidate her. Real bastard.
.

when you remember what the supposedly polite ones did to Putins esteemed guest President Evo Morales on his way home from Moscow a few months ago you can see why he does it though .

 

[DotCommunist]

and thats just because hes been living a secret life for decades and has learned to watch himself

he's quite the orator when he gets his go though- his speech about blairs bid for EU president was genuinely funny, even though the blokes a maggot he does have a silver tounge

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Informed insiders have confirmed that Syria and Hezbollah plan to retaliate against Israel in the event of an American-led military attack on Syria. Says one: “if even one US missile hits Syria, we will take this battle to Israel.”

http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/sandbox/yes-syria-and-hezbollah-will-hit-israel-if-us-strikes[/QUOTE]

 

[Casually Red]

he's quite the orator when he gets his go though- his speech about blairs bid for EU president was genuinely funny,

it was brilliant, frankly

even though the blokes a maggot he does have a silver tounge

orally gifted , without a doubt

 

[Casually Red]

Oh dear oh dear . The cheese eating surrender monkeys have just announced they wont be deciding on military action until they hear the results of the UN inspectors . The onions have just dropped off the baguette of Obamas cheif military ally by the looks of things . Not only has he failed to convince others to his side the ones at his side are dropping like flies.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's starting to look like nobody wants a square go. With iraq we had a place that had been half done once, starved for ten years and they still had to lie so they could go in and finish the job. Remember all that hot air about the fearsome 'Republican Guard'? who promptly threw uniforms and weapons into ditches and joined the refugee columns. We lost more to ;friendly fire' than from the opposition who were talked up as a credible threat.

this looks different. This looks like a potentially very bloody situation for any invader- and the public(s) of various countries are totally unwilling to believe a word the PTB say because they fucked us over Iraq with a load of lies and ignoring a million man march.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Interview with Nader Atassi about different groups within Syria, and a bit about potential US action:

Syrian Anarchist Challenges the Rebel-Regime Binary View of Resistance

 

[ska invita]

The UN report will show that sarin was used, and blah blah blah vagueness, so the report wont be enough to stop anyone going in, it will still be in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Delroy Booth]

If France are starting to prevaricate now then fucking hell, Obama's in a tight spot.

So no UN backing, no allies, and potentially without congressional approval, he's going to bomb Syria? It's fucking cowboy behaviour christ hows he's gonna be able to get away with that?

If Obama bails out on war after ramping up the tension like this he looks weak toward Russia and becomes Jimmy Carter all over again, but if he unilaterally starts bombing Syria there's a good chance he's going to end up dragging the US into a regional war with no international backing.

What a god awful mess. Why can't he just accept a deal with the Russians that let's Assad stay on in part of the country temporarilty in exchange for a ceasefire? Russia would take that, Assad would bite your leg off for it. Why is it so important the regime fall and Assad die? Will they not settle for anything less than Assad's corpse paraded through the streets like Gaddafi? They've already crippled Iran's most capable ally and one of Russia's key middle-eastern ally, can't they settle for that instead of kicking off WW3? Lunacy.

 

[Delroy Booth]

The UN report will show that sarin was used, and blah blah blah vagueness, so the report wont be enough to stop anyone going in, it will still be in the eye of the beholder.

You're right eventually they'll put together some case, same old, whether it's true or not it hardly matters because the UN security doesn't stop these warring powers doing what they want. All the arguing about the specifics of the chemical weapons attack almost misses the point that this isn't about chemical weapons, they want rid of Assad to get to Iran, whether or not he's used them.

 

[Casually Red]

the good thing is the weaker he looks the less likely it is hell get congressional votes . Even the ones whod like to blow syria to smithereens might see this as a golden chance to stick the boot into him . Great timing from france there, absolutely immaculate .
His only chance now is maybe Putin pisses himself laughing so much he falls off his chair and dies .

 

[Delroy Booth]

the good thing is the weaker he looks the less likely it is hell get congressional votes . Even the ones whod like to blow syria to smithereens might see this as a golden chance to stick the boot into him . Great timing from france there, absolutely immaculate .
His only chance is now that Putin pisses himself laughing so much he falls off his chair and dies .

Stop with the Putin love-in, it's cringeworthy. The mans every bit as much of a tyrannical bastard as Obama.

And I don't know what Putin's got to laugh about. It's not Turkey that's in ruins in civil war. It's not Saudi Arabia, or Jordan, it's Russia's ally that's been destroyed. Putin's good at the macho posturing and it's hilarious how easily impressed you are by it, but that's all he can do.

The old Syria is gone whatever happens to Assad. 100,000+ dead. 2million refugees. Doesn't matter what happens now Russia's foremost arab ally is fucked for the next 30 years.

 

[Casually Red]

The UN report will show that sarin was used, and blah blah blah vagueness, so the report wont be enough to stop anyone going in, it will still be in the eye of the beholder.

theres always a possibility it might point to a detail that casts doubt on the wests assertions . The vagueness is always couched in diplomatic terms and clarity can be demanded . Also theyll have to publish the test results , identify the projectiles...if any, factory grade or home produced. That type of thing .

 

[Casually Red]

Stop with the Putin love-in, it's cringeworthy. The mans every bit as much of a tyrannical bastard as Obama.
.

Obamas not even a good tyrant, hes shit at everything .

 

[ska invita]

You're right eventually they'll put together some case, same old, whether it's true or not it hardly matters because the UN security doesn't stop these warring powers doing what they want. All the arguing about the specifics of the chemical weapons attack almost misses the point that this isn't about chemical weapons, they want rid of Assad to get to Iran, whether or not he's used them.

Unless the UN report comes out and says decisively that the Rebels did it (highly unlikely, even if that was the truth of the matter) then the report will just be a figleaf of respectability for when the attack happens. I just cant see it not happening though, despite all the apparent wobbles, which i'd guess are more about showing a bit of due process rather than real squeamishness.

 

[Casually Red]

Unless the UN report comes out and says decisively that the Rebels did it (highly unlikely, even if that was the truth of the matter) then the report will just be a figleaf of respectability for when the attack happens. I just cant see it not happening though, despite all the apparent wobbles, which i'd guess are more about showing a bit of due process rather than real squeamishness.

Possibly not . The way these things tend to work is theres a bit that gives comfort to either side and the rest depends upon how much political and international pressure the opposing sides can muster behind their interpretations. And right now Obama has the appearance of a dead duck, nationally and internationally . In political terms nobody likes to be seen lining up behind a loser, you take on his smell of dogshit, hence frances zut alors moment . The man has badly fucked up in a diplomatic sense and made himself look clueless .
Plus with Obama and the western powers previously completely writing off the UN itself they havent done themselves any favours . If the UN can conceivably stop a war it makes itself relevant once more .

Theres also the issue of the Syrians giving the inspectors the green light almost immediately to go there and the west seemingly wrong footed when that happened . And immediately dismissing any findings they might have . It may have been assumed in western circles the automatic syrian response would be to block inspection , at least for while .

Its just possible with France talking about the results the may have got a whiff something fishy might arise that could cast doubt on the western version . They wanted a speedy war with few questions asked and underway, and with Britain falling at the first hurdle that plan seems to have gone awry .

 

[ska invita]

Obama 'to wait two weeks' for Congress vote

reminds me of the "pause" over the NHS, or one of those New Labour listening exercises

 

[Delroy Booth]

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/06/syria-pseudo-struggle-egypt

Here's an article on Syria by Slavoj Zizek. The last sentence is interesting:

So what is happening in Syria these days? Nothing really special, except that China is one step closer to becoming the world's new superpower while its competitors are eagerly weakening each other.

I hadn't thought of it like that much, it's right.

 

[Casually Red]

reminds me of the "pause" over the NHS, or one of those New Labour listening exercises

i think it means he reckons hes going to need 2 weeks to twist arms . Bearing in mind the man has been reading everybody in the worlds private e mails and phone calls for the last few years its possible he could manage it .

 

[saaj]

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...il-rights-in-syria-to-murdoch-and-rothschild/

Israel grants oil exploration in SYRIA (!) rights to major fuck-heads...

 

[Casually Red]

This isn't leftist ideological stuff this neo-realist, neo-classical view as much as anything else. This is how it works, haven't you noticed how the USA and other big powers just pick and choose what international laws they follow? Is this news to you or something? I'd love to there be a functional system of international law but c'mon look around, it doesn't exist, it's liberal fantasy shit.

of course its not news to me, but the laws themselves are largely sound and progressive . Their implementation is the problem . Ergo the logical response to that from leftists and progressives should be the democratisation of the UN, not dismissing international law completely with no alternative to it . The entire globe has signed up to the UN and recognises it as the legitimate global forum for settling disputes and upholding human rights . Thats the reality of the situation . Therefore the progressive fight should be undertaken within it . Particularly when its laws more often than not favour the progressive position and progressive positions more often than not get a freindly ear . Thats why the west keeps ignoring them .

 

[saaj]

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...il-rights-in-syria-to-murdoch-and-rothschild/

 

[Casually Red]

http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...il-rights-in-syria-to-murdoch-and-rothschild/

its a war of conquest and aggression, no doubt about it . By the scum of the earth .

 

[Delroy Booth]

of course its not news to me, but the laws themselves are largely sound and progressive . Their implementation is the problem . Ergo the logical response to that from leftists and progressives should be the democratisation of the UN, not dismissing international law completely with no alternative to it . The entire globe has signed up to the UN and recognises it as the legitimate global forum for settling disputes . Thats the reality of the situation . Therefore the progressive fight should be undertaken within it . Particularly when its laws more often than not favour the progressive position . Thats why the west keeps ignoring them .

The democratisation of the UN?

The logical response from leftists should be to acknowledge no system of international law of any type is possible within the framework of globalised capitalism and imperialism, not clinging to forlorn hopes of reforming the UN. It should be acknowledged that international law and the UN is one of the buttresses of imperialism. How are you going use this liberal edifice to meaningfully fight imperialism? Come on. The progressive UN? give me strength, it's laughable you call yourself an anti-imperialist.

 

[Casually Red]

The democratisation of the UN?

The logical response from leftists should be to acknowledge no system of international law of any type is possible within the framework of globalised capitalism and imperialism, not clinging to forlorn hopes of reforming the UN. It should be acknowledged that international law and the UN is one of the buttresses of imperialism. How are you going use this liberal edifice to meaningfully fight imperialism? Come on. The progressive UN? give me strength, it's laughable you call yourself an anti-imperialist.

so unless theres world communism there should be no international law, no human rights laws..nothing . Domestic law is just as bourgeouis and capitalist orientated, so that shouldnt be there either I presume .
Dont think youve thought that one through somehow .

 

[Casually Red]

yes delroy, the democratisation of the fucking UN

 

[Delroy Booth]

so unless theres world communism there should be no international law

I give up, you can't argue with that type of obtuse stupidity. These tit for tat arguments are a waste of everyone's time and I'm sorry to everyone for wasting such time and effort on what was once an interesting thread.

These are very basic concepts, and hearing some supposed "anti-imperialist" pine for the UN and international law is hilarious. Liberalism to the rescue!

Domestic law is just as bourgeouis and capitalist orientated, so that shouldnt be there either I presume .

Domestic law is very different from international law. It can be enforced for starters. There's sovereignty, not anarchy. This is so basic I don't even know what to tell you. I hope you're trolling and threadshitting.

Dont think youve thought that one through somehow .

The irony hasn't been lost on me, don't worry.

I don't think you know anything at all about how imperialism works or the theory of international relations and that you're basically spamming the thread with drivel, using specific terminology inaccurately all the time, or reducing complex topics to inane soundbites, or flirting with anti-semitism and homophobia (William Hague's "oral gifts" eh fnar fnar, God no wonder you're such a Putin arsekisser) it's just endless. God knows what you mean by the democratisation of the UN, don't tell me I don't want to know.

Anyone with any sense please set this forumshitter on ignore, any hope of an intelligent and grown up conversation about Syria is impossible without it becoming "Mossad did 9/11" or "Putin loves International Law" whilst he's here spamming away.

You're basically somewhere between being an idiot, a clown and total scum. adieu

 

[ska invita]

I give up, you can't argue with that type of obtuse stupidity. These tit for tat arguments are a waste of everyone's time and I'm sorry to everyone for wasting such time and effort on what was once an interesting thread.

dont feel that way delroy, im getting a lot out of everyones contributions and disagreements make interesting reading - at least its all on topic

 

[TomUS]

I didn't think he would dare but Obama hinting he may attack no matter what congress says, & other reports say he's ordered the pentagon to expand the target list. He's become obsessed with this thing.

President Obama said Friday that he knew getting Congress to authorize an intervention in Syria would be difficult, but wouldn't say whether or not he would act anyway if the legislature said no. "You're not getting a direct answer," Obama said when a reporter pressed him on the question. Obama said he would "make the best case I can" to the American people, and plans to address the nation on Tuesday.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2013/09/06/obama-congress-vote-will-be-tough.html

 

[teqniq]

Has he lost the plot?