And next, Syria?

[Mr.Bishie]

Fuck me this is tedious.

Start a new thread zahir for latest news & developments please.

 

[kebabking]

The issue that I have is the inconsistent use of that justification; if that is a valid reason for state's to attack their neighbours then that must apply across the board?

Fair enough - consistency and people/politics aren't exactly bedfellows.

Then we get to validity and justification, which are subjective - you and I could probably agree on half a dozen examples/hypotheticals, and disagree on another half dozen.

Then we ask 'who judges?'. The obvious answer is the UN, but is there anyone who genuinely believes that the UN is currently a functioning organisation when it comes to this stuff?

Let's say that on the 23rd of Feb 22, one day before the Russian invasion, the Ukrainians had used missiles and aircraft to attack Russian airfields, railway junctions, fuel pipelines and the like to forestall the Russian attack. That attack could/would/might have still gone ahead, but it would be disrupted, and would have - in the short term - got nowhere near as far.

For you would that be legitimate/ moral/whatever, or not?

It probably wouldn't be legal under the current law, because the current laws are all over the place on pre-emptive and preventative war, and because the UN - what with Russia being on the Security council - wouldn't back it, and Ukraine wouldn't want to telegraph to Russia that it was going to take pre-emptive/preventive action.

Would you care? Would, for you, the right/legitimate action take precidence over the legal thing to do - or can something only be right/moral/whatever if it also the legal thing?

If Syria happened here, would the French deciding to do something about the nukes at Faslane and Aldermaston be legitimate, given the chances of something glowing falling into the hands of the Tommy Robinson Militia?

 

[brogdale]

Fair enough - consistency and people/politics aren't exactly bedfellows.

Then we get to validity and justification, which are subjective - you and I could probably agree on half a dozen examples/hypotheticals, and disagree on another half dozen.

Then we ask 'who judges?'. The obvious answer is the UN, but is there anyone who genuinely believes that the UN is currently a functioning organisation when it comes to this stuff?

Let's say that on the 23rd of Feb 22, one day before the Russian invasion, the Ukrainians had used missiles and aircraft to attack Russian airfields, railway junctions, fuel pipelines and the like to forestall the Russian attack. That attack could/would/might have still gone ahead, but it would be disrupted, and would have - in the short term - got nowhere near as far.

For you would that be legitimate/ moral/whatever, or not?

It probably wouldn't be legal under the current law, because the current laws are all over the place on pre-emptive and preventative war, and because the UN - what with Russia being on the Security council - wouldn't back it, and Ukraine wouldn't want to telegraph to Russia that it was going to take pre-emptive/preventive action.

Would you care? Would, for you, the right/legitimate action take precidence over the legal thing to do - or can something only be right/moral/whatever if it also the legal thing?

If Syria happened here, would the French deciding to do something about the nukes at Faslane and Aldermaston be legitimate, given the chances of something glowing falling into the hands of the Tommy Robinson Militia?

Yeah, but I'm not really attempting to judge geopolitical actors or those who supposedly oversee international law. What I was doing is pointing out the rank hypocrisy of posters on this forum, in this thread who support one state's rights to invade, occupy and destroy using the exact same justifying arguments employed by another that they object to.

 

[brogdale]

Fuck me this is tedious.

Start a new thread zahir for latest news & developments please.

Yeah, apologies; my bad. I'll shut-up now.

 

[zahir]

Fuck me this is tedious.

Start a new thread zahir for latest news & developments please.

I'm still hoping people will stop crayoning over the thread.

Anyway Karim Franceschi

7/ What we feared has come. Ground forces are moving to siege Kobani. Turkish-backed jihadists advance from 3 axes with airstrikes & drones. Manbij has fallen. They have crossed the Qere Qozaq Bridge toward Kobani. ISIS is back, rebranded, under the Turkish flag.

8/ Footage from Turkish media shows SNA roadblocks in occupied Manbij. Militias wear ISIS patches openly—no denials, no outrage, not even from the news anchor. This isn’t counterterrorism. It’s state-backed terror. Flames rise in Kobani. Who will stand for Rojava?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Then we ask 'who judges?'. The obvious answer is the UN, but is there anyone who genuinely believes that the UN is currently a functioning organisation when it comes to this stuff?

Might be a smidge more effective if not for people who cheerfully ignore everything the UN says in favour of waging illegal wars of aggression and supporting genocidal regimes.

 

[Spymaster]

What I was doing is pointing out the rank hypocrisy of posters on this forum, in this thread who support one state's rights to invade, occupy and destroy using the exact same justifying arguments employed by another that they object to.

Which of course, nobody has actually done, unless you perform fallacious gymnastics to draw an equivalence that a child could see does not exist.

 

[Spymaster]

Yeah, apologies; my bad. I'll shut-up now.

Good man.

We got there in the end.

 

[teqniq]

The SNA has taken Manbij.

Rojava Information Center

Yes saw a vid last night of SNA forces executing captured fighters from Manbij and Turkey is backing these people with air support. Also photos have appeared of Turkey backed forces running a checkpoint openly wearing ISIS patches. That right folks NATO member Turkey is backing ISIS.

@D_abdulkader


Turkey = ISISTurkish media was showing footage of a checkpoint to Manbij, Syria meant to demonize the Kurds but mistakenly showed their own terrorist allies with ISIS patches on their uniform.Caught in 4K.



source

 

[zahir]

Some background on HTS and ISIS, published early last year.

Jihadi ‘Counterterrorism:’ Hayat Tahrir al-Sham Versus the Islamic State - Combating Terrorism Center at West Point

Abstract: Once allies in the same organization, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) and the Islamic State have an interesting history that turned them into ‘frenemies’ from April 2013 to February 2014 and then outright enemies over the past nine years. This led to a broader global fight between al-Qa`ida...

ctc.westpoint.edu

 

[Gramsci]

If this reporting in the Guardian is accurate, the former...

View attachment 454460

I see its all kicked off on this thread.

I was going to post this on the Gaza thread.

IMO Israel under Netanyahu sees the fall of Assad and the temporary power vacuum as ideal time to further his idea of remodelling the middle east. With Netanyahu seeing success in Lebanon against Hezbollah and its ongoing genocide in Gaza as a success. So the sudden fall of Assad is another opportunity to further Israel state aims

Genocide in Gaza.

More settlement building in West Bank

Removal of military threat in Lebanon

Further safeguarding its illegal annexation of Golan heights by entering illegally the buffer zone. The question is whether Israel will stay temporarily or de facto include it in the territory it already illegally occupies.

What seems to be lost in recent posts is that the Golan heights belong to Syria. Not Israel.

I don't think Smotrich recent comments about Greater Israel are a goer.

What Israel does is in its own interests.

They are doing it out of their own foreign policy interests.

 

[brogdale]

What seems to be lost in recent posts is that the Golan heights belong to Syria. Not Israel.

An important point when considering the Israeli claims that it need a 'buffer zone'; its extending that from already illegally occupied land.

C4News just interviewed the Israeli spox David Mencer who appeared to be saying that the Israeli state looked forward to harmonious relations with Syria and how moved everybody was seeing the Syrian people throw off the yoke of dictatorship whilst simultaneously claiming that they had not choice but to keep bombing Syria so that the jihadi regime would have no military assets.

 

[Gramsci]

An important point when considering the Israeli claims that it need a 'buffer zone'; its extending that from already illegally occupied land.

C4News just interviewed the Israeli spox David Mencer who appeared to be saying that the Israeli state looked forward to harmonious relations with Syria and how moved everybody was seeing the Syrian people throw off the yoke of dictatorship whilst simultaneously claiming that they had not choice but to keep bombing Syria so that the jihadi regime would have no military assets.

Personally I don't think the Israeli governing classes give a toss about the Syrian people.

 

[brogdale]

Personally I don't think the Israeli governing classes give a toss about the Syrian people.

I think that's a given seeing as governing classes don't give a toss about the inhabitants of their own jurisdictions.

 

[Gramsci]

An important point when considering the Israeli claims that it need a 'buffer zone'; its extending that from already illegally occupied land.

C4News just interviewed the Israeli spox David Mencer who appeared to be saying that the Israeli state looked forward to harmonious relations with Syria and how moved everybody was seeing the Syrian people throw off the yoke of dictatorship whilst simultaneously claiming that they had not choice but to keep bombing Syria so that the jihadi regime would have no military assets.

Occupying Golan heights was a buffer zone. Now its occupying the buffer zone for the original buffer zone.

 

[Gramsci]

An important point when considering the Israeli claims that it need a 'buffer zone'; its extending that from already illegally occupied land.

C4News just interviewed the Israeli spox David Mencer who appeared to be saying that the Israeli state looked forward to harmonious relations with Syria and how moved everybody was seeing the Syrian people throw off the yoke of dictatorship whilst simultaneously claiming that they had not choice but to keep bombing Syria so that the jihadi regime would have no military assets.

David Mencer the former head of Labour Friends of Israel. What a surprise.

 

[ska invita]

What Israel does is in its own interests.
They are doing it out of their own foreign policy interests.

Israels interests are also that of the financing AND cheering on West, our government v much included. Theres been a lot of pip pip good show from Labour so far. Oh what a lovely ethnostate forming genocide we're having.
Clock is ticking on Iran now

 

[Gramsci]

Israels interests are also that of the financing AND cheering on West, our government v much included. Theres been a lot of pip pip good show from Labour so far. Oh what a lovely ethnostate forming genocide we're having.
Clock is ticking on Iran now

Impression I get is that the racist government of Israel does whatever it see fit for its own needs.

It expects West support ( arms in this case as it could not be invading and bombing Syria without that) but has a take it or leave it when it comes to USA or any other Western government like ours trying to tell it what to do ( not cross red lines , not stop aid or build settlements in West Bank)

 

[_Russ_]

Like Sharks in a feeding frenzy israel seems out of control

 

[Dystopiary]

Razan Saffour

I've read Ali Abunimah on Palestine and Israel: really insightful, thorough and seemingly compassionate; I don't know if he went down a rabbit hole since, sold his soul for money, or if I missed something all along. Whichever, for someone to write like that then be so callous is chilling imo. In the company of all those other scumbags now.

 

[hitmouse]

Can anyone recommend a reasonably accessible book on the history of Syria leading up to these times? I’ve read a bit some pieces here over the years. Obviously. I don’t have any kind of handle on the history the nation. And feel remiss commenting on it other than good riddance to Asad. Something that presents an overview. I’ve read various bits, books about Isis.

Other than Burning Country, which I see has had a few mentions already, The Impossible Revolution: Making Sense of the Syrian Revolution by Yassin al-Haj Saleh is the other book I'd recommend if you want serious analysis from a Syrian revolutionary perspective:

Impossible Revolution

Saleh urges us to oppose intervention of imperialist powers in Syria, and reject the tyranny of the Assad regime.

www.haymarketbooks.org

This first book in English by Yassin Al-Haj Saleh, the intellectual voice of the Syrian revolution, describes with precision and fervor the events that led to the Syrian uprising of 2011—the metamorphosis of the popular revolution into a regional war and the “three monsters” Saleh sees “treading on Syria’s corpse”: the Assad regime and its allies, ISIS and other jihadists, and the West. Where conventional wisdom has it that Assad’s army is now battling against religious fanatics for control of the country, Saleh argues that the emancipatory, democratic mass movement that ignited the revolution still exists, though it is beset on all sides.

Saleh offers incisive critiques of the impact of the revolution and war on Syrian governance, identity, and society to produce a powerful and compelling response to the traumas that define the contemporary Syrian experience. All those concerned with the conflict should take note.

 

[brogdale]

David Mencer the former head of Labour Friends of Israel. What a surprise.

The interview is up and part of this piece. Mencer is not a very good spokesperson and certainly no Regev; the most laughable section being at 25.50 when he accuses Guru-Murthy of being "a little bit obsessed with Israel..." to which Guru-Murthy laughs and reminds him that he is the Israeli spox and that's why he's asking him questions about Israeli policy!

 

[zahir]

Updates on the situation in Manbij and Kobane

Update December 10 – Escalation in NES, Turkish/SNA assault threatens Kobane – Rojava Information Center

rojavainformationcenter.org

 

[PTK]

The USAF has deployed B52s in Syria, according to The World Tonight on Radio 4. Heavy bombers.

 

[teqniq]

Can anyone recommend a reasonably accessible book on the history of Syria leading up to these times? I’ve read a bit some pieces here over the years. Obviously. I don’t have any kind of handle on the history the nation. And feel remiss commenting on it other than good riddance to Asad. Something that presents an overview. I’ve read various bits, books about Isis.

Not a book but if you can actually summon up the nerve to wade through it, this actual thread is a good historical reference with loads of links. Be warned though some complete space cadets have posted on it, particularly at the hight of the civil war.

 

[mojo pixy]

Funny how they never thought to bomb the fuck out of those storage facilities and scientific institutions when Assad was still in power, you know, those 'red lines' that Obama talked about. Really strange. almost as if they didn't give a fuck about a brutal dictator.

I suppose that if Israel had begun bombing Syrian facilities while al Assad was in control, it would have probably been the start of ww3. Iran would retaliate immediately, the US would puff and pant, Russia would growl, it'd be the very definition of conflagration.

Now, for a brief window, the Syrian military doesn't have any allies. It's opportunistic, and Israel will want to paint it as doing the world a favour trashing a load of suddenly ownerless chemical weapons, fighter jets and warships. For a very short time, nobody will retaliate.

That's explaining (and only IMO) not excusing.

 

[zahir]

SDC statement

Statement on the Ninth Anniversary of the Founding of the SDC

Our Great Syrian People,On this significant occasion, we celebrate the ninth anniversary of the founding of the Syrian Democratic Council (SDC). This occasion also marks the fall of the Syrian authoritarian regime that ruled the country for decades. We commemorate the struggle and sacrifices of the Syrian people in their fight for freedom, dignity, and equal citizenship.

The SDC was founded in 2015 as a reflection of the Syrian people's determination to confront a centralized and authoritarian regime. This regime had failed to meet the aspirations of the Syrian people.The fall of this oppressive regime marked the removal of a long-standing barrier to realizing the people's aspirations. Now, we should advance into a new phase of national effort. This phase demands the unification of all powers to collaboratively shape the future of Syria.

The fall of the regime is not merely the end of a dark era. It also marks the beginning of a profound national responsibility. This responsibility requires all political and societal powers to unite. Together, they must work toward establishing a democratic and pluralistic state. Such a state must be founded on the values of freedom, justice, and respect for human rights.

Over years of resistance, the Syrian people have endured immense suffering in their fight against oppression and tyranny. The lives lost by the martyrs are a strong and enduring representation of the highest form of sacrifice for freedom. Additionally, the resilience of detainees, the suffering of the internally displaced persons (IDPs) and the grief of mothers, who lost their children, reflect the suffering of the Syrian people. Instead, they continued to resist and fight for justice.

This unwavering defiance reflects the extraordinary courage of a people determined to stand against injustice.These sacrifices made by the Syrian people have created a moral obligation for us. Therefore, we must work diligently to realize the goals of the Syrian revolution and to lay the foundations for a new Syria.

At this critical juncture, the SDC calls for an end to violence across Syria and engaging in an inclusive national dialogue. Consequently, we urge all Syrian national powers to unite and engage in discussions to shape the future of the country. The goal is to establish a new Syria that is inclusive of all its people, no matter their ethnic background or religious beliefs. The emphasis is on building a society that values its diversity as a source of strength and unity.

The SDC also underscores the necessity of addressing regional challenges, foremost among them the expansionist plans of Turkey. They threaten the unity and sovereignty of Syrian territory. We call on Turkey to end its occupation of Syrian territories, withdraw completely, and return to its internationally recognized borders. Only through such a commitment can balanced neighborly relations based on mutual respect be established.

Furthermore, the SDC continues its unwavering commitment to achieving transitional justice and fostering national reconciliation. These are crucial steps toward creating the Syria that all its citizens desire. Moreover, the SDC emphasizes the importance of empowering women and youth. Their active participation in decision-making is vital for shaping the Syria's future. Women and youth are seen as the cornerstone of the nation’s revival.

Free Syrians,
The significant achievement we celebrate today is the result of your sacrifices. Let us seize this opportunity together and use it as a strong foundation for the future. Our goal is to establish a new homeland, one that is grounded in the values of freedom, equality, and peace for all Syrians. The hopeful vision for Syria's future depends on us. Let us take on this important responsibility.

December 10, 2024
Syrian Democratic Council

 

[teqniq]

I suppose that if Israel had begun bombing Syrian facilities while al Assad was in control, it would have probably been the start of ww3. Iran would retaliate immediately, the US would puff and pant, Russia would growl, it'd be the very definition of conflagration.

Now, for a brief window, the Syrian military doesn't have any allies. It's opportunistic, and Israel will want to paint it as doing the world a favour trashing a load of suddenly ownerless chemical weapons, fighter jets and warships. For a very short time, nobody will retaliate.

That's explaining (and only IMO) not excusing.

It's not just the Israelis it's the US as well which kinda compounds the hypocrisy. They are essentially ensuring that no-one in Syria can mount any kind of meaningful attack on Israel itself but they are also ensuring that Syria as a nation is completely crippled militarily for the foreseeable future. They are not really concerned about chemical weapons, if they were why did they not do something before when the opportunity presented itself? If the US cared about the multiple war crimes and human rights abuses perpetrated by the Syrian regime they could have done this years ago, but no, the regime had an ally in Russia and in any case the US never wanted the regime gone because the alternative at the time was looking to be a socialist/anarchist collective to self governance. But all that has gone now, all or most of the people in Syria who were putting forward those ideas are dead

 

[zahir]

Article with a round-up of events by Robin Yassin-Kassab, one of the authors (with Leila Al-Shami) of Burning Country. I have reservations about it as he does sound rather uncritical of HTS and doesn't say anything about the Turkish backed offensive in the north.

Free Syria's first days: The good, the bad, and the ugly

A free Syria is a blessing after Assad's fall. And though the future is uncertain, Syrians are determined to shape their destiny, says Robin Yassin-Kassab.

www.newarab.com

eta: He's now describing the SNA taking Manjib as it being liberated.

 

[Spymaster]

They are essentially ensuring that no-one in Syria can mount any kind of meaningful attack on Israel itself but they are also ensuring that Syria as a nation is completely crippled militarily for the foreseeable future.

Why wouldn't they?

They are not really concerned about chemical weapons, if they were why did they not do something before when the opportunity presented itself?

When before, has the opportunity presented itself, for Israel to wipe out Syria's military capability, with such limited consequences?