And next, Syria?

[teqniq]

It was always suspected

Suspected? It was completely obvious, at least to anyone with more than a passing interest in events in Syria what was going on.

 

[brogdale]

It just turns the perpetrators into monsters and it serves no purpose.

It's effectively desecrating and mutilating corpses and all that does is dehumanise those who carry out such pointless acts.

I don't agree.
I really don't see how it's fit to judge the victims of horrendous state oppression and murder.

 

[Rompipalle]

I'm the same, but with the atrocities the Assads have committed on people, it's not the time or place to judge imo.

I think it does their own cause a disservice.

It remains to be seen what happens next but any new regime may be on a sticky wicket if it is unable to conduct itself appropriately and to avoid acts which may come back to haunt them at a later stage.

 

[brogdale]

I think it does their own cause a disservice.

Yeah, completely discredits the removal of the dictatorial regime.

 

[weltweit]

Israeli and American bombing aside, do people think Syria's initial and first steps forward, post Assad, are likely to produce a democratic and peaceful government?

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

It just turns the perpetrators into monsters and it serves no purpose.

It's effectively desecrating and mutilating corpses and all that does is dehumanise those who carry out such pointless acts.

Trashing someone's grave is normally an anti-social thing to do, but it doesn't make the perpetrators monsters per se. Assad was the monster here, one of the monsters, and I see no reason why he should be venerated any more than, say, our old mate Adolf Hitler. He's long dead anyway, and if anyone is upset by this 'desecration' they are probably nasty fuckers.

 

[Spymaster]

... do people think Syria's initial and first steps forward, post Assad, are likely to produce a democratic and peaceful government?

Of course it will.

It'll be a great addition to all the other democratic and peaceful Islamic governments of the world!

 

[cloudyday]

It just turns the perpetrators into monsters and it serves no purpose.

On the contrary, if they turned those thighbones into trumpets it would make them musicians.

 

[inva]

Article with a round-up of events by Robin Yassin-Kassab, one of the authors (with Leila Al-Shami) of Burning Country. I have reservations about it as he does sound rather uncritical of HTS and doesn't say anything about the Turkish backed offensive in the north.

Free Syria's first days: The good, the bad, and the ugly

A free Syria is a blessing after Assad's fall. And though the future is uncertain, Syrians are determined to shape their destiny, says Robin Yassin-Kassab.

www.newarab.com

eta: He's now describing the SNA taking Manjib as it being liberated.

He was never pro PKK/YPG as I remember, but shifted to ultra anti as they began to accomodate more towards Assad and I think this fitted with him ending up seeing Turkey as the only means of preserving the 'revolution' after his hopes of US intervention were disappointed.

 

[zahir]

Trashing someone's grave is normally an anti-social thing to do, but it doesn't make the perpetrators monsters per se.

It's entirely understandable but the real issue with what happened seems to have been the treatment of the living, particularly given the sensitivity of relations with the Alawites:

https://nitter.poast.org/timourazhari/status/1866805842202464687#m

Syrian Islamist fighters destroyed & set fire to the mausoleum of Hafez al-Assad in the Alawite town of Qardaha

A resident said fighters kept streaming in, sometimes cursing & intimidating locals who had announced their full cooperation with Syria’s news rulers on Monday.

 

[zahir]

He was never pro PKK/YPG as I remember, but shifted to ultra anti as they began to accomodate more towards Assad and I think this fitted with him ending up seeing Turkey as the only means of preserving the 'revolution' after his hopes of US intervention were disappointed.

I'm getting the impression now that his position is just Syrian Arab nationalism. If you compared the situation to say the collapse of Yugoslavia it might be like supporting the Serbs or the Croats. It's disappointing but maybe his politics is just a long way from mine.

 

[zahir]

Just going off Syrians on twitter these kinds of views seem widespread with Turkish based accounts fanning the flames.

To be clear to anyone reading I'm not arguing in favour of Kurdish nationalism either.

 

[inva]

I'm getting the impression now that his position is just Syrian Arab nationalism. If you compared the situation to say the collapse of Yugoslavia it might be like supporting the Serbs or the Croats. It's disappointing but maybe his politics is just a long way from mine.

That's probably fairly accurate, I should say it's been ages since I followed his writing at all so this is only based on the direction he seemed to be going back then, it doesn't sound like there's been much change though. I always got the impression Al-Shami was well to his left but even from his starting point I think he ended up in a fairly reactionary place. The political derangement of a significant chunk of the left on Syria probably didn't help matters.

 

[tim]

He's already dead ffs. shrugs

We exhumed and beheaded Oliver Cromwell. It's symbolic of the fall of the regime.

 

[xenon]

We exhumed and beheaded Oliver Cromwell. It's symbolic of the fall of the regime.

We exhumed and beheaded Oliver Cromwell. It's symbolic of the fall of the regime.

Yep. As I recall, some Rumanians queued to shoot Ceaușescu after he was very much dead.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

One murdering, repressive arsehole replaced by another. Great.

 

[tim]

It just turns the perpetrators into monsters and it serves no purpose.

It's effectively desecrating and mutilating corpses and all that does is dehumanise those who carry out such pointless acts.

The monsters are the Assads and their minions who tortured people to death and then had a machine that crushed their bodies to enable anonymised disposal.

Hafez died in his bed and the remains deposited in his tomb were incinerated. In the UK we exhume corpses from burial grounds that impede development very frequently. I am linked with a London Quaker Meeting where they sold their old building for redevelopment. When the bodies were exhumed we found that a Primark had been built on much of one Friend and that a kitchen extension had been erected over another with his or her legs poking out from the farside of the wall.

 

[tim]

One murdering, repressive arsehole replaced by another. Great.

You can't murder a mummified corpse.

 

[bcuster]

So we know where Mrs Assad is NOT

Asma al-Assad: Syria's London-born first lady not welcome in UK

Once celebrated as an advocate of women's rights in the Middle East, Syria's British-born former first lady Asma al-Assad has fled into exile with her husband, with UK officials saying she is not welcome to return to London.- 'War profiteer' - Asma al-Assad is from a Sunni family whereas Bashar...

www.yahoo.com

 

[Rompipalle]

I'm the same, but with the atrocities the Assads have committed on people, it's not the time or place to judge imo.

I'm not judging them. I totally get it that these are people with every right to be angry and vengeful but if this new regime ever wants to be taken seriously, they need to be able to adopt the moral high ground and exercise restraint, otherwise there will never be stability in that country... and that is what Syria really needs.

Far better that the Assad tomb was guarded and, at some point, for the remains to be quietly moved to an undisclosed location rather than leaving the tomb as a focal point for pointless gestures. I don't doubt that many of the participants and their families will have been directly affected by the conduct of the Assad regime but it's just as likely that, as with all such incidents, there will also have been an element of pitchfork-wielders happy to get involved in other people's personal tragedies and make themselves part of it all.

 

[teqniq]

New Lines report on Sednaya prison:

Hope and Despair at Assad's 'Human Slaughterhouse'

New Lines reports from Sednaya Prison, where Syrians brave horrors in a desperate search for lost loved ones

newlinesmag.com

vid of women prisoners being released along with a still from the vid of a toddler who perhaps has known nothing else:

View attachment ssstwitter.com_1733698285399.mp4



there are lots more vids and pics but many are not appropriate to post on here.

 

[Gramsci]

a good piece from one of the Salvage collective. It’s a video, but there is a transcript as well.

“And it’s important also to understand that this is not just a militia. This is not just fighting. As soon as the cities and villages started to fall, people started to come out and protest again. And that’s what happened in Damascus. And happened in Homs. Particularly interestingly, places that were not traditional opposition areas or were Druze areas (a smaller religious sect in the south) were very heavily involved and many non-Islamist militias from the south were actually the ones that took Damascus or came into Damascus from the south.”

Video | Everything is changing in relation to this

rs21 - revolutionary socialism in the 21st century

revsoc21.uk

Just listened to that.

I'm not really up on this anti imperialist left stuff and Israel. So I gather he is talking to a specific audience.

Not , after recent reading , on Zionism / Israel convinced on the its all about anti imperialism argument

A leading light in my local PSC pointed out to me that the Cold War ended years ago. Its not about anti imperialism any more. Evangelical Christianity in US and hardline religious Zionism is more important now.

On HTS. There trajectory sounds similar to Hamas. Learning to take aboard that the society they work in is fundamentally interested in freedom. ( Fall of Assad / Palestinian state/ Fall of Zionism) Not Islamism. Though this will attract percentage of the society they operate in to their Islamic values

Second thing is like Hamas HTS have moved to showing they can do the bread and butter stuff. ( On another thing I listened to) HTS have spent time making an efficient administration in the sector they control

So both are a form of Nationalism rather than internationalist Islamism.

I think the test will be whether HTS will be prepared in practise to work alongside other groups in Syria

Hamas for example have shown willingness at some moments to work in a Unity government. Alongside Fatah. Interestingly when Muslim Brotherhood ( later to be Hamas) were still not taking active part in Palestinian resistance some Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood joined Fatah. As Fatah were taking action.

The other thing he brings up is that both Hamas and Islamic Jihad have made positive statements on fall of Assad. Not saying fall of Assad is a disaster.

From my personal experience I've found people I meet from middle east here in London ( learning English on visas) are often secular and dont like Islamic parties ( the men with beards one told me). But when it comes down to Palestine they in their words regard Palestinians as their brothers and the Zionists stole their land.

If I was Israeli Id be more worried about flowering of real democracy in middle east. As ordinary people would ask their governments to do more

Good twenty minute talk imo.

Calls for end to West arming Israel at end I notice

 

[tim]

The new regime coming across as slick and prepared for the take over in this Chanel Four report.

 

[PTK]

Just listened to that.

I'm not really up on this anti imperialist left stuff and Israel. So I gather he is talking to a specific audience.

Not , after recent reading , on Zionism / Israel convinced on the its all about anti imperialism argument

A leading light in my local PSC pointed out to me that the Cold War ended years ago. Its not about anti imperialism any more. Evangelical Christianity in US and hardline religious Zionism is more important now.

On HTS. There trajectory sounds similar to Hamas. Learning to take aboard that the society they work in is fundamentally interested in freedom. Not Islamism. Though this will attract percentage of the society they operate in to their Islamic values

Second thing is like Hamas HTS have moved to showing they can do the bread and butter stuff. ( On another thing I listened to) HTS have spent time making an efficient administration in the sector they control

So both are a form of Nationalism rather than internationalist Islamism.

I think the test will be whether HTS will be prepared in practise to work alongside other groups in Syria

Hamas for example have shown willingness at some moments to work in a Unity government. Alongside Fatah. Interestingly when Muslim Brotherhood ( later to be Hamas) were still not taking active part in Palestinian resistance some Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood joined Fatah. As Fatah were taking action.

The other thing he brings up is that both Hamas and Islamic Jihad have made positive statements on fall of Assad. Not saying fall of Assad is a disaster.

From my personal experience I've found people I meet from middle east here in London ( learning English on visas) are often secular and dont like Islamic parties ( the men with beards one told me). But when it comes down to Palestine they in their words regard Palestinians as their brothers and the Zionists stole their land.

If I was Israeli Id be more worried about flowering of real democracy in middle east. As ordinary people would ask their governments to do more

Good twenty minute talk imo.

Calls for end to West arming Israel at end I notice

"Second thing is like Hamas HTS have moved to showing they can do the bread and butter stuff."
Of course they are doing bread and butter stuff. That is what any insurgent group does, once it is in control of territory. That it actually engages in administration has no bearing on whether or no it has "moderated".

 

[PTK]

New Lines report on Sednaya prison:

Hope and Despair at Assad's 'Human Slaughterhouse'

New Lines reports from Sednaya Prison, where Syrians brave horrors in a desperate search for lost loved ones

newlinesmag.com

vid of women prisoners being released along with a still from the vid of a toddler who perhaps has known nothing else:

View attachment 454562

View attachment 454563

there are lots more vids and pics but many are not appropriate to post on here.

The release of political prisoners is a wonderful thing.

 

[zahir]

Interview with Aaron Zelin about al-Jolani and HTS

What to Know About the Man Who Toppled Assad

Abu Mohammad al-Jolani has worked for years to rebrand himself, but has he truly broken from his al Qaeda past?

foreignpolicy.com

archived version: https://archive.ph/N6W89

FP: Can Jolani bring order to Syria after so many years of civil war and with so many competing groups and factions? Is Jolani really the man for the job? And what kind of relationship will he have with Turkey—and the Kurds?

AZ: In terms of the Kurds, I’m less concerned of potential deals being cut. HTS already reached out to the Kurds and the SDF, and it seems as if they’re more willing to discuss and negotiate. There’s also the fact that there have been rumors behind the scenes that the two groups had already been engaging with one another going back a couple of years.

The issue is more whether Turkey wants to continue to push its cards against the Kurds in Syria and how that could then further create more cascading destabilization vis-à-vis the Islamic State. I believe that the U.S. government as well as European countries are probably in talks with Ankara now over this issue.

In terms of stability, besides the Islamic State, the SNA is the biggest problem right now.

FP: What would you say are the biggest misconceptions about HTS and Jolani that are really important to dispel in terms of grasping the situation in Syria and its potential future?

AZ: One of the things is just coming to grips with the fact that they’re no longer global jihadis or related to the Islamic State or al Qaeda. That’s old news.

At the same time, we need to be cognizant that they also aren’t these liberal democrats, like many of the folks who came out to protests in 2011, either. It’s very complicated, and people need to get used to being in the gray instead of making it a black-and-white issue

 

[zahir]

HTS getting to grips with bureaucracy in Damascus

The department of flags: Syrian rebels lay bare Assad’s corrupt state

Transitional authorities grapple with bureaucracy filled with phantom jobs, pervasive graft and culture of obedience

www.ft.com

Archived version: https://archive.ph/DnBXR

“It’s all going to become one. All the government bodies will be dissolved: no Salvation Government, no factions, nothing,” said Mohammad Yasser Ghazal, a 36-year-old technocrat in the rebel government seconded from his job to help reconfigure the Damascus governorate. “It will all soon be dissolved into one Syrian republic.”

Ghazal insisted his state would not take government workers’ sectarian affiliations into account, only the value of the work that each brings. “You saw how the [Assad] regime raised them: they call us Sidi [‘my master,’]” he said. “You feel they are broken. [We just want them] to get out of that mindset. You’re a person with self-dignity, I’m not your master or anything. I am an employee, like you.”

 

[Riklet]

This is the kind of thing every armchair cynic and expert will pick holes in and say is fake but isn't life really just this crazy random and shocking at points? I don't know how anyone could stage this, what with the guy going into shock etc.

This must be the luckiest cunt in Syria, one more day and he would surely be dead.

 

[Riklet]

Of course it will.

It'll be a great addition to all the other democratic and peaceful Islamic governments of the world!

You and others on this thread are accepting that it is and will be an Islamic government. Now, in three months, in three years. Well, it might be, but HTS were just one group involved in the latest actions. It's a possibility but by no means a given. This is Syria, not Libya Tunisia Egypt or Yemen. And this war has gone on a lot lot longer than anything else in the arab spring.

So perhaps I'm naive in a country now dominated by armed Suni Islamist groups. But, even in the past day we have seen the Islamic flag alongside the Free Syrian flag, a backlack and no sign of it today. We are seeing HTS in photos making deals and powersharing plans with the southern front forces, a mixture of FSA and non islamist local revolutionaries and milder Islamist groups. Then there's the SDF controlling about 1/3 of the country... I don't see them joining an Islamist kind of government. Then the Alawites Christians other Shia groups too, who still have political and economic power... quite what their role will be I'm not sure but none of these factors have even been mentioned.

IMO realistically it'll either be more complex powersharing and coalitions initially and medium term, or hopefully not but possibly, descent into more violence and civil war rather than a functioning Islamist government controlling the entire country. Especially because Syria was and is one of the more secular countries in the Middle East... with the likely return of millions of Syrians from Lebanon, Turkey and Europe this adds another factor into the equation. The pressure from within Syria from civil society for a non-dictatorial autocratic regime bossing people around and telling them what to do and favouring their community over all others. Secular idealism was a big part of the 2011 revolt and it isn't dead yet.

 

[Riklet]

And if we still had butchersapron here on this thread he would undoubtedly be making some wise and insightful comments about the nature of the regime and the the class struggle and antagnosisms within it. Yes HTS have been running a government in Idlib but the main civil structures from the postal system to the national bank to the education system are still grounded in the former regime, dominated by the Allawite minority as well as the upper and upper middle class regime figures, which also included a successful Suni elite.

The extent to which a new government will seek to replicate these existing class structures and relationships remains to be seen. As it stands the new government has basically told people to go back to work. We must balance this with what revolutionary class forces across and within different ethnic groups will be seeking to change and bring about and the extent to which continuity prevails over radical change.

Syria will become an Islamist regime is a fitting headline for some junk mainstream media article but it also misses the complex picture here, we shouldnt fall for this simplistic analysis when so much contrary to this is happening right under our noses in a revolutionary setting.