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And next, Syria?

Ok. Thought so , but that did help clarify things. So The Syrian People & The Regime are pretty much the same thing?
 
bimble said:
Ok. Thought so , but that did help clarify things. So The Syrian People & The Regime are pretty much the same thing?
Click to expand...

" the regime " are the Syrian government . The broad mass of the Syrian people support their army , their country and their president. None of which would have had an earthly chance of surviving this long against those odds if they didn't . The forces arrayed against Syria are so powerful that only a " regime" that has the backing of its people could hope to withstand them.
Why on earth would they support the opposition ? I mean just look at them. They're a complete joke. One one hand you have the beardies , on the other you have this self appointed gaggle of tosses hosted in turkey , who can't agree on anything , prostituting themselves openly to western states . Why on earth would the Syrian people entrust their futures to either ?
 
Casually Red said:
...
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As well as continuing to be an apologist for Assad's atrocities, you're further revealing yourself as a fucking idiot who doesn't recognise what sort of nonsensical poison you're coming out with.

Even if we were to accept that some of the opposition are foreign-inspired jihadhis, what I'm objecting to is your categorising all the opposition and everyone who is killed or injured by Assad's atrocities in this way.

In typical totalitarian fashion, you're dismissing everyone who Assad considers an enemy as being a foreign backed extremist who needs to be purged from Syria by whatever means he sees fit.
 
Think I'll clean out the fridge and paint my toenails now instead of trying to argue with CR, who is enviably sure of what's what.
 
andysays said:
As well as continuing to be an apologist for Assad's atrocities, you're further revealing yourself as a fucking idiot who doesn't recognise what sort of nonsensical poison you're coming out with.

Even if we were to accept that some of the opposition are foreign-inspired jihadhis, what I'm objecting to is your categorising all the opposition and everyone who is killed or injured by Assad's atrocities in this way.

In typical totalitarian fashion, you're dismissing everyone who Assad considers an enemy as being a foreign backed extremist who needs to be purged from Syria by whatever means he sees fit.
Click to expand...

Explain this to me



Eta

And this, from as far back as 2012

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-con...12-DOD-Release-2015-04-10-final-version11.pdf
 
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bimble said:
"the beaches are very busy"? Google image search of 'syria beach' brings up a very disturbing mixture of things. Beautiful beaches though.
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I was watching a vice news report a few weeks back that showed a bit of this. The hotels were booked out and the beaches packed .

Here's the full tourism vid

 
Casually Red said:
No explanation, because it cannot be explained away .
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I'm not seeking to explain it away because it has absolutely nothing to do with my point that you are citing examples of anti-Assad forces who you claim are foreign-backed or jihadis, or even foreign-backed jihadis (and examples of all those things clearly exist), and then attempting to use that to demonstrate that everyone killed or maimed by Assad must be one of them.

In other words because there are some people who Assad might regard as legitimate targets (though how anyone is a legitimate target for torture or indiscriminate killing by barrel bombing of civilian areas, you haven't yet explained), you're happy to accept that everyone he regards as the opposition, or even those who get in the way of attacks on those he regards as the opposition, are as deserving of their fate as the worst foreign-backed jihadis.

You haven't only come out with this shit on this thread, this is your standard defence of various supposedly anti-imperial strongman regimes who are above criticism in your eyes, so any criticism, justified or not, is dismissed as motivated by support for western states (that last in itself is patently ridiculous considering the real positions of those you accuse of it).

And this is utterly typical of justifications for the mass murder of totalitarian regimes the world over. Like you, those doing it are usually so in thrall to their totalitarian ideology, you don't even recognise you're doing it, but everyone else can see it and is disgusted by it everytime you open your mouth or type out your apologism.
 
butchersapron said:
Funder of the Shabiha.
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Really useful & interesting. Ta.

What do all these forms of tashbih have in common? The use of raw force to govern, both domestically and regionally, without any proper form of democratic representation? An ideological discourse divorced from reality and realistic possibilities? The accumulation of wealth through the state with utter disregard of the law?
The answer is separation.
The separation of gain from effort, of words from their meanings, of positions from qualifications and aptitude. In its essence, tashbih negates the value of work and the laws that link labour to income and production to wealth. It prevents the production of intelligible discourse. It prevents the practice of a politics that generates representation and binds private interests with the wider interests of the state.
Click to expand...
 
coley said:
He has a point though, Assad isn't nearly as unpopular as we might suppose and if he did agree to supervised elections then the West might find itself in a bit of a pickle.
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A western demand is that not only must the Syrian president step down he must never be allowed to stand as a candidate in any future elections either. He has rightly told them to fuck off on both counts . they know he'd win .
He also asked anyone who wanted to inspect the Syrian election process to come to Syria and do so . The west refused. They also refused to permit Syrians to vote in the Syrian embassies in western capitals. The spectacle we witnessed in Lebanon is the reason why they didn't want embarrassing scenes in western countries. Bit too hard to ignore .

All Syrians need to do is look at their neighbours in either Iraq or Lebanon to see the joys of having a host of sectarian based political parties constantly striving for oneupmanship . Both political systems are sectarian cesspits...I live under one myself and it's revolting . Why would Syrians want that ? It goes against everything Syria has always stood for. Against everything that Syrians of all backgrounds are intensely proud of . Which is that Syria itself is a pluralist Arab country, with all sorts of heritages that make it pretty unique .
Permitting sect based political parties would be an act of national suicide. They don't want it .

One thing I laugh at with the pathetic twats on this site is their belief what they call a " strongman " must somehow be unpopular . " strongmen " are more often than not very popular indeed with their people . Whether its Cuba, Venezuela or Syria the people themselves dont seem all that impressed with the wests obsession with " freeing " them .
 
2012 article on the political vacuity of 'anti-imperialist' Assad cultists. He does them a bit too much credit by saying that they invoke Lenin to support their arguments - I think australiansyriangirl476 youtube channelism is more their level m8.
al-akhbar said:
But even if we grant Assad the benefit of the doubt regarding his ascension to power, what about the actual policies Assad implemented? Are they as socialist and anti-imperialist as Assad apologists would like us to believe? During his first decade of rule, Assad attempted to reverse whatever remained of Baathist socialism. He was a much more effective agent of neo-liberalism than his father was. Whatever non-neo-liberal realities apologists point to, they have nothing to do with the Assad regime. On the contrary, they have managed to survive the regime and were not borne by it.
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To continue to insist on blanket support for Assad under the pretense of an anti-imperialist stance is to confuse anti-imperialism with blind support for nationalist elites. Furthermore, a refusal to conflate the two is not an invention of “liberal armchair intellectuals” as some first wayers claim. Such a refusal was substantively formulated by one of the pillars of anti-colonial thought, Frantz Fanon, whose name is conspicuously absent from the political lexicon of Assad apologists. Long before neo-liberal elites had come to power, Fanon warned against the excesses of nationalist bourgeois elites in using anti-imperialist or anti-colonial discourse to disguise their own comprador role in consolidating imperialist structures of control.
Click to expand...
 
Patteran said:
Really useful & interesting. Ta.
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Aye, bunch of murdering bastards, no doubt, yet given these people existed,( and still do) that Assad is a barrel bombing murderous dictator, as was his father, given all this and the cronyism and graft associated with the family regime, how come he is still is the preferred choice of the majority of Syrians?
This is the question I have been looking to understand.
 
bimble said:
Ok. Thought so , but that did help clarify things. So The Syrian People & The Regime are pretty much the same thing?
Click to expand...

There is no Syria any more. There's a coastal redoubt where the Alawite regime is contained and is becoming a vassal state of Russia. There's the Kurds to the north and the rest of it is basically like the worst bits of Fallout 4.

There's no putting it back together now. The idea that there will ever be a nation in the 2011 borders of Syria again is ludicrous.
 
coley said:
Aye, bunch of murdering bastards, no doubt, yet given these people existed,( and still do) that Assad is a barrel bombing murderous dictator, as was his father, given all this and the cronyism and graft associated with the family regime, how come he is still is the preferred choice of the majority of Syrians?
This is the question I have been looking to understand.
Click to expand...
Is he the preferred choice? There is no doubting he still has support but do the majority/large numbers of Syrians support him/the regime or do they see a return to something like the pre-war status quo as preferable to civil war. The Assad's were perfectly willing to use repression/torture but what did this mean for most Syrians? How many were untouched by it or at least coped without too much hardship compared to the state of the place now? Perhaps giving all the forces aligned against it and how far off a victory for "the moderate opposition (hate that term)" and the chance for something better rather than something far worse under JAN, Daesh or others. Perhaps it is a vote for the carnage to stop or a chance to go home.
 
andysays said:
I'm not seeking to explain it away because it has absolutely nothing to do with my point that you are citing examples of anti-Assad forces who you claim are foreign-backed or jihadis, or even foreign-backed jihadis (and examples of all those things clearly exist), and then attempting to use that to demonstrate that everyone killed or maimed by Assad must be one of them.

In other words because there are some people who Assad might regard as legitimate targets (though how anyone is a legitimate target for torture or indiscriminate killing by barrel bombing of civilian areas, you haven't yet explained), you're happy to accept that everyone he regards as the opposition, or even those who get in the way of attacks on those he regards as the opposition, are as deserving of their fate as the worst foreign-backed jihadis.

You haven't only come out with this shit on this thread, this is your standard defence of various supposedly anti-imperial strongman regimes who are above criticism in your eyes, so any criticism, justified or not, is dismissed as motivated by support for western states (that last in itself is patently ridiculous considering the real positions of those you accuse of it).

And this is utterly typical of justifications for the mass murder of totalitarian regimes the world over. Like you, those doing it are usually so in thrall to their totalitarian ideology, you don't even recognise you're doing it, but everyone else can see it and is disgusted by it everytime you open your mouth or type out your apologism.
Click to expand...

I've no problem at all with someone opposing anyone, no matter who they are . What you are so irked by is a taken for granted western sponsored narrative being challenged in the first place .
If you ..or anyone else..support overthrow and regime change in Syria then the onus is on you to show us what and who you realistically envisage taking power in Syria, and how thats going to happen .And what thats going to be like . And why you're so convinced the Syrian people want that too.
The efforts of yourself and your likers in that regard are utterly fucking pathetic, risible . You can't point to any " opposition " that isn't contaminated up to its bollocks with jihadists and foreign imperialist backing . You can't point to any alternative political programme for syrian governance other than sharia in one form or another .
If the Syrian state is overthrown it spells a holocaust for its people , its identity and its traditions. And for the people next door in Lebanon too .You know this full well ,it's glaringly obvious, so it's safe to assume you regard this as a price worth paying by the people you want to see "liberated ". In light of that I find your po faced moralising as cynical and vacant as Cameron's .
 
DownwardDog said:
There is no Syria any more. There's a coastal redoubt where the Alawite regime is contained and is becoming a vassal state of Russia. There's the Kurds to the north and the rest of it is basically like the worst bits of Fallout 4.

There's no putting it back together now. The idea that there will ever be a nation in the 2011 borders of Syria again is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

Out of over 30 Syrian government ministers only 2 of them are Alawite . There is no " Alawite regime ", the Alawite population don't recive any preferential treatment compared to their fellow Syrians . They still suffer the effects of their historical neglect under colonial rule .The Ba'ath party has traditionally courted the allegiance of the Sunni majority , whether middle class merchants , professionals or Bedouin tribes. And it's their support which has been crucial in all of this .
Compared to the farce of coalition air strikes which had zero effect on Islamic militants unless they were attacking the Kurds, ever since Russia has directly intervened the loonies ranks have begun to crumble. They're on the run everywhere. And now with that support increasing up tothree fold, and with a reinvigorated Syrian army ,they'll be defeated and Syria will be rebuilt. President Assad will most likely still be a regional player long after those calling for his ousting in the west have departed the political scene.

If governments want to stop the slaughter in Syria the most effective way to do that is stop funding and facilitating terrorism in Syria. Because that's all it is. And it's a lost terrorist cause now anyway. They're done for. Prolonging the country's agony is all it is.
 
copliker said:
2012 article on the political vacuity of 'anti-imperialist' Assad cultists. He does them a bit too much credit by saying that they invoke Lenin to support their arguments - I think australiansyriangirl476 youtube channelism is more their level m8.
Click to expand...

I think a few of the comments under it put that article in proper context better than I could hope to . Particularly the one about the 4th way .
Simply put though he might as well be writing about unicorns. The existence of a " third way" anywhere among the Syrian opposition is inifinitely more mythical as Cameron's 70,000 moderates. Its not even ephemeral ...its simply not there bar a few isolated bloggers. Class war have...quite literally..much more chance of seizing power in the UK. Notable too that in his discourse on the non aligned movement he completely omits the unwavering support for Syria by governments such as Nicaragua, Cuba, Venezuela etc .because addressing that issue would , very quickly, upend the very ephemeral , pipe dream of a point he's trying to make.
 
CNT36 said:
Is he the preferred choice? There is no doubting he still has support but do the majority/large numbers of Syrians support him/the regime or do they see a return to something like the pre-war status quo as preferable to civil war. The Assad's were perfectly willing to use repression/torture but what did this mean for most Syrians? How many were untouched by it or at least coped without too much hardship compared to the state of the place now? Perhaps giving all the forces aligned against it and how far off a victory for "the moderate opposition (hate that term)" and the chance for something better rather than something far worse under JAN, Daesh or others. Perhaps it is a vote for the carnage to stop or a chance to go home.
Click to expand...

I think you have nailed it,I imagine most Syrians would like a change from the Assad dynasty but seeing the turmoil boiling over in the neighbouring regions, perhaps they thought the status quo in the foreseeable was the best option.
Let's be honest, Tunisia, Iraq et al,aren't the best advertisements for radical change?
 
Casually Red said:
I've no problem at all with someone opposing anyone, no matter who they are . What you are so irked by is a taken for granted western sponsored narrative being challenged in the first place .
If you ..or anyone else..support overthrow and regime change in Syria then the onus is on you to show us what and who you realistically envisage taking power in Syria, and how thats going to happen .And what thats going to be like . And why you're so convinced the Syrian people want that too.
The efforts of yourself and your likers in that regard are utterly fucking pathetic, risible . You can't point to any " opposition " that isn't contaminated up to its bollocks with jihadists and foreign imperialist backing . You can't point to any alternative political programme for syrian governance other than sharia in one form or another .
If the Syrian state is overthrown it spells a holocaust for its people , its identity and its traditions. And for the people next door in Lebanon too .You know this full well ,it's glaringly obvious, so it's safe to assume you regard this as a price worth paying by the people you want to see "liberated ". In light of that I find your po faced moralising as cynical and vacant as Cameron's .
Click to expand...

I have to grudgingly concede you have a point, but what would you suggest Assad could be replaced with?
Or do you think a brutal dictatorship dynasty is the best the Syrians can hope for?
 
Humberto said:
Assad should be locked up somewhere for good. Then perhaps they might have a chance.
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A few months/weeks ago I would have unstintingly agreed with you, but these days? Not so sure, agreed Assad's your usual brutal dictator, but under his regime it would seem most people could live a fairly normal life as opposed to having the Shyte bombed out of them on a daily basis as seems now to be the case?
Sort out ISIS then have a 'rethink' of the ME situation, Aye, Assad et al are a bunch of psychopathic bastards, but pale into comparison compared to ISIS.
 
Its not HIS country or his dads. No one deserves to live under a dictatorship by that prick. If half or even less of what he is said to have done is true then lock him up somewhere. Thats the best solution in my humble opinion. I don't know if revolution is the only answer btw and I might actually be a cunt for saying that. Fucked if I know what should be done but I'm doubtful of CRs 'popular support' argument. Fear, compulsion and survival more likely.
 
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