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And next, Syria?

camouflage said:
Not being funny or nuffin, but do you have evidence that last years elections were rigged?

ETA for your reply above- weren't the Syrian elections observed- as far as per war zone and refusing rebel controlled areas? If Western nations refused to observe them... kind of Catch-22 there on the Western side.
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They didn't just refuse to observe them. They also denied permission for them to be held at embassies in western capitals. Because they bloody well knew what the scenes would be like and that they couldn't be hidden, people queuing round the block to vote for Assad was something they wanted nobody to see. The only people who stopped anyone from voting were the NATO countries and their head hacking allies in Syria. And then they whinged about unfair, rigged elections . Fucking wankers .
 
Casually Red said:
He won because ...no matter how much it annoys you..he retains mass popularity in Syria, and amongst the Syrian expatriate and refugee community outside of Syria . All the opposition to him are either head hackers or a complete and utter fucking joke based in turkey who can't even agree among themselves . The Syrian people wouldn't piss on them much less put them in charge . They couldn't run a bath .

Regardless of what support he gets from foreign governments the fact is without the support of the bulk of the Syrian people he'd have been gone long ago . He could not have hoped to have withstood this far without their support . It's utter rubbish to suggest he could have . That popularity may well annoy you, disappoint you or whatever but it's a fact .
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Ok, you're right that international observers passed the election. Looking at the list, it's not extensive. MPs from Russia, Iran, Brazil, Venezuela, North Korea (lol), Tajikistan, the Philippines and Uganda, plus representatives from other countries, but a glance at the Canada delegation shows that they are all very clearly pro-Assad.

Now it may be that they invited observers from elsewhere. I don't know. But if you compare it to Chavez's election in 2012, when Venezuela invited everyone and asked for the highest judges in the world to be present, it's not a great comparison.

Plus the main opposition movements boycotted it. And those not living in govt-controlled areas could not vote. And yes, frankly, I don't believe that many people voted for Assad even with a couple of ridiculous 'opposition' candidates.
 
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camouflage said:
So much for democracy right... only political processes can end this war, the sentiment quoted here amounts to a form of fundamentalism, Assad must go- fuck what the Syrian people want, they'll die until Assad has gone and then they'll die some more after that.
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No, I was referring to the previous elections, which most suspect were dubious in the least, however if some form of decently recognised election can be resurrected from this mess that is now Syria,then mebbes somehow a path forward can be found, I can even stomach Assad as a candidate if and it's a bliddy big if, a form of election acceptable to all parties can be found, obviously I am not including ISIS in this scenario.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Ok, you're right that international observers passed the election. Looking at the list, it's not extensive. MPs from Russia, Iran, Brazil, Venezuela, North Korea, Tajikistan, the Philippines and Uganda, plus representatives from other countries, but a glance at the Canada delegation shows that they are all very clearly pro-Assad.

Now it may be that they invited observers from elsewhere. I don't know. But if you compare it to Chavez's election in 2012, when Venezuela invited everyone and asked for the highest judges in the world to be present, it's not a great comparison.

Plus the main opposition movements boycotted it. And those not living in govt-controlled areas could not vote. And yes, frankly, I don't believe that many people voted for Assad even with a couple of ridiculous 'opposition' candidates.
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You're defeating yourself with your own logic here . The reason Venezuela had to call in international observers in the first place was because the US and their bought and paid for opposition were insisting elections were rigged . They plainly weren't, so these accusations come from a bunch of serial liars who refuse to accept election results when they go the " wrong " way . And not just liars but people who actually overthrew the Venezuelan government and pretty well ignored what the observers had to say too. and who have a great deal of form in denouncing elections were their guy doesn't win as rigged, and then fomenting coups and civil wars to achieve regime change . I'll be ignoring the unapologetic murderers of Salvador Allende and would be murderers of Hugo Chavez on this one, thanks very much.

The reason people living in insurgent controlled areas couldn't vote is that anyone manning or attending a polling booth was virtually certain to have their head chopped off . That's not Assads fault . It's theirs . And they boycotted it because they knew they wouldn't win. But wherever they weren't able to chop people's heads off the turn out was clearly absolutely massive, people queued in the blazing sun for 12 hours to vote for him . except for the states ...western..which banned the elections on their territory .

Why you're taking the word of these people in this instance is beyond me, it's what they always bloody say . Why do you just accept their word so easily when the evidence is staring you in the face that their narrative has absolutely massive, gaping holes in it .

And it's not just the elections . Syrian expatriates from around the globe are supporting the government with currency drives and stuff like that to overcome the sanctions. There's a hell f a lot more going on than just an election.
 
coley said:
No, I was referring to the previous elections, which most suspect were dubious in the least, however if some form of decently recognised election can be resurrected from this mess that is now Syria,then mebbes somehow a path forward can be found, I can even stomach Assad as a candidate if and it's a bliddy big if, a form of election acceptable to all parties can be found, obviously I am not including ISIS in this scenario.
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Can you achieve peace when a murderous bastard goes unpunished? Perhaps. Chile did it with Pinochet. Spain did it with the Francoists and 'wanca' Juan Carlos.

I agree that allowing Assad to go unpunished may be a price worth paying. But as you say, only if the opposition movements are involved. If they are not, then the election is meaningless.
 
Casually Red said:
I'll be ignoring the unapologetic murderers of Salvador Allende and would be murderers of Hugo Chavez on this one, thanks very much.
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yep, me too. And actually my main gripe with the election isn't so much the rigging, or not, as the absence of any meaningful opposition. That makes the election meaningless. Who were the alternative candidates? Whom did they represent?

And we do disagree about Assad, I think. He is not Allende or Chavez. Not by a long chalk.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Can you achieve peace when a murderous bastard goes unpunished? Perhaps. Chile did it with Pinochet. Spain did it with the Francoists and 'wanca' Juan Carlos.

I agree that allowing Assad to go unpunished may be a price worth paying. But as you say, only if the opposition movements are involved. If they are not, then the election is meaningless.
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Bill Clinton systematically murdered, very deliberately, over half a million Iraqi children with a blockade that was so genocidal 2 UN officials appointed to oversee it resigned in disgust . And called it for what it was, genocide . And that was just children . Over half a million more adults died due to it. Blairs labour government were up to their necks in it too, Hain..Robin Cook and his "ethical foreign policy"...ffs



These bastards have gone completely unpunished .There's no need to go looking around far flung corners of the globe . They've no right to be judging anyone, especially the leader of a country with its back to the wall, invaded by global jihadists backed by a superpower and a host of powerful countries . a country in imminent danger of being overrun by the scum of the earth .
 
Casually Red said:
These bastards have gone completely unpunished .
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Yep. You won't get an argument from me about that. Same goes for Obama. The US is the biggest war criminal country in the world. This continues to be the case. I would never say otherwise.

Casually Red said:
There's no need to go looking around far flung corners of the globe . They've no right to be judging anyone, especially the leader of a country with its back to the wall, invaded by global jihadists backed by a superpower and a host of powerful countries . a country in imminent danger of being overrun by the scum of the earth .
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This is what it has turned into. But it wasn't so in 2011, was it? And how did he act then? At that point, was it a country with its back to the wall or merely a regime?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
yep, me too. And actually my main gripe with the election isn't so much the rigging, or not, as the absence of any meaningful opposition. That makes the election meaningless. Who were the alternative candidates? Whom did they represent?

And we do disagree about Assad, I think. He is not Allende or Chavez. Not by a long chalk.
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Well that would make Hugo Chavez himself illegitimate as Venezuelas leader when the opposition there pulled the very same stunt and boycotted the elections in 2005 after realising they wouldn't win .

BBC NEWS | World | Americas | Venezuela election boycott widens

How quickly some people forget these tactics .

And how quickly some people forget what Chavez thought of Assad . And vice versa . After Fidel Castro ,Assad was the world leader most personally close to Assad .

hugo-chavez-never-give-up-syrianpatriot-com.jpg



Great article herein my view

Hugo Chávez – Revolutionary Internationalist | venezuelanalysis.com
 
Chavez didn't kill opposition people. He didn't turn his guns on his own people. Assad did. Why do you think the Syrian army has halved in its manpower, why do you think boys are fleeing the country to avoid conscription into that army? Assad has, since 2011, failed all kinds of tests.

tbh whatever Chavez thought of Assad, I find the comparisons bizarre. Chavez exercised restraint when there were protests against him - and I'm sure you know that there were fabricated attempts to show him shooting at them. But are you saying the response of Assad was fabricated too? Who was it protesting against Assad? Why were they protesting? Does this bear much comparison to Chavez?
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yep. You won't get an argument from me about that. Same goes for Obama. The US is the biggest war criminal country in the world. This continues to be the case. I would never say otherwise.


This is what it has turned into. But it wasn't so in 2011, was it? And how did he act then? At that point, was it a country with its back to the wall or merely a regime?
Click to expand...

There's no doubt there were excesses in some instances by its security forces , but that's been way overhyped . It's security forces were themselves being shot down, right from the very beginning. This chaos was planned, right from the beginning. The " regime" very quickly did as the protestors demanded , rescinded all sorts of draconian laws and released all the people held under them . Fired all sorts of generals, beauraucrats and officials. Even before then Bashar was extremely popular in Syria as a reformer . But there's no appeasing the west, no appeasing Erdogan and the Saudis and certainly no appeasing Al Qaeda either . They set that war in motion and have kept it in motion ever since .
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Chavez didn't kill opposition people. He didn't turn his guns on his own people. Assad did. Why do you think the Syrian army has halved in its manpower, why do you think boys are fleeing the country to avoid conscription into that army? Assad has, since 2011, failed all kinds of tests.

tbh whatever Chavez thought of Assad, I find the comparisons bizarre. Chavez exercised restraint when there were protests against him - and I'm sure you know that there were fabricated attempts to show him shooting at them. But are you saying the response of Assad was fabricated too? Who was it protesting against Assad? Why were they protesting? Does this bear much comparison to Chavez?
Click to expand...


Surely you're not denying huge numbers of Venezuelans were protesting against Chavez, and indeed calling for and mobilising for his overthrow ? Because they categorically were .

I think if you remember back a bit the entire western media told us categorically that Hugo Chavez did indeed massacre his own people for protesting against him . And even showed us the video evidence of it . That was used to justify his overthrow. The same chaos was planned in Syria by the same people. Police, troops and protestors alike were fired on and fired back . Snipers fired on troops and protestors. Troops blamed protestors for shooting them, which they did. And troops most certainly shot protestors, some of whom wre armed, some of whom were not. It was chaos . Remember most of hugos army turned against him . Initially . He could easily have been killed . Only his opponents were so stupid to openly boast about what they'd done, while even more stupidly leaving the presidential guard in charge of miraflores and we'd never have known about it .
The difference between Venezuela and Syria is there's no al Qaeda in Venezuela . Had those forces been unleashed against Venezuela there'd have been no restraint . There'd have been all out war , just like in Syria . And it came close to it a number of times . And it could still happen yet .
 
Casually Red said:
There's no doubt there were excesses in some instances by its security forces , but that's been way overhyped . It's security forces were themselves being shot down, right from the very beginning. This chaos was planned, right from the beginning. The " regime" very quickly did as the protestors demanded , rescinded all sorts of draconian laws and released all the people held under them . Fired all sorts of generals, beauraucrats and officials. Even before then Bashar was extremely popular in Syria as a reformer . But there's no appeasing the west, no appeasing Erdogan and the Saudis and certainly no appeasing Al Qaeda either . They set that war in motion and have kept it in motion ever since .
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What do you know abour what some say re Assads release of jihadists in 2011? Some say he did this to make it difficult for the West to back the opposition. Seems far fetched to me, doubt he'd be under any illusions about the West and its frenemies consdering Iraq was just next door. More likely a response to the demands of said opposition I'd have thought.
 
camouflage said:
What do you know abour what some say re Assads release of jihadists in 2011? Some say he this this to make it difficult for the West to back the opposition. Seems far fetched to me, doubt he'd be under any illusions about the West and its frenemies consdering Iraq was just next door. more likely a response to the demands of said opposition.
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It was what the opposition were demanding. And the notion they were released to demonise the opposition is a complete nonsense . They were released along with everyone else who were held under the state of emergency laws which Assad rescinded as part of his reform package . They hadn't actually done anything . The opposition make this claim now but they are on record time and time again from the vey beginning calling on jihadis from across the globe to come to Syria. They're ..the FSA moderate generals, directly supported by the US government ..are on record fighting directly alongside Deash , calling them their brothers, and defending them publicly on television interviews . Trying to shift the blame for all that, their own doing, onto Assad is a cunts trick.

But then again they're a shower of cunts so it's in their nature .
 
Casually Red said:
Surely you're not denying huge numbers of Venezuelans were protesting against Chavez, and indeed calling for and mobilising for his overthrow ? Because they categorically were .

I think if you remember back a bit the entire western media told us categorically that Hugo Chavez did indeed massacre his own people for protesting against him . And even showed us the video evidence of it . That was used to justify his overthrow. The same chaos was planned in Syria by the same people. Police, troops and protestors alike were fired on and fired back . Snipers fired on troops and protestors. Troops blamed protestors for shooting them, which they did. And troops most certainly shot protestors, some of whom wre armed, some of whom were not. It was chaos . Remember most of hugos army turned against him . Initially . He could easily have been killed . Only his opponents were so stupid to openly boast about what they'd done, while even more stupidly leaving the presidential guard in charge of miraflores and we'd never have known about it .
The difference between Venezuela and Syria is there's no al Qaeda in Venezuela . Had those forces been unleashed against Venezuela there'd have been no restraint . There'd have been all out war , just like in Syria . And it came close to it a number of times . And it could still happen yet .
Click to expand...

Ukraine got the same treatment, the masked snipers we were assured were Berkut. They shot protestors and police alike the day after an agreement had been made between the president at the time, the opposition and the EU. A spectacle of violence in Freedom Square and whoosh, the triumph of the masses. Same old narrative
 
The latest incarnation of a decades long family run dictatorship held a legitimate election in the middle of his country being torn to shreds where half the population has fled? That's a brilliant one that is [emoji1]
 
camouflage said:
Ukraine got the same treatment, the masked snipers we were assured were Berkut. They shot protestors and police alike the day after an agreement had been made between the president at the time, the opposition and the EU. A spectacle of violence in Freedom Square.
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And the very same thing happened in Moscow in the early 90s when that lousy bum Boris Yeltsin launched his coup against parliament . Mystery snipers opened up on both sides instantaneously, causing chaos . But as per usual the " bad guys " got the blame , and the wests guy seized power after the opposition lost their legitimacy by " killing peaceful protestors" . Time and time again the same thing.
 
littlebabyjesus said:
Yep. You won't get an argument from me about that. Same goes for Obama. The US is the biggest war criminal country in the world. This continues to be the case. I would never say otherwise.


This is what it has turned into. But it wasn't so in 2011, was it? And how did he act then? At that point, was it a country with its back to the wall or merely a regime?
Click to expand...

Btw I'd just like to say thanks for being able to have this debate in a constructive manner, not often you get that on here
 
coley said:
No, I was referring to the previous elections, which most suspect were dubious in the least, however if some form of decently recognised election can be resurrected from this mess that is now Syria,then mebbes somehow a path forward can be found, I can even stomach Assad as a candidate if and it's a bliddy big if, a form of election acceptable to all parties can be found, obviously I am not including ISIS in this scenario.
Click to expand...

You do realise that many of the most powerful opposition factions are on record stating they oppose democracy ? How do you see that working out ?
 
Oh dear:

Turkish warplanes are reported to have shot down an unidentified military aircraft near the border with Syria.

A Turkish military official told the Reuters news agency that Turkish F-16s had fired on the jet after warning it that it was violating Turkish airspace.

Turkish media broadcast video footage of a plane crashing into mountains near the border with Hatay province.
Click to expand...

Turkey 'shoots down warplane on Syria border' - BBC News
 
The Turkish Viper shootdown looks like an Su-24 Fencer. Could be Russian or Syrian. I am still rewarded with a little squirt of endorphins when I see Sov hardware in flames.
 
Twitter is saying it's Russian, one of the pilots has been captured by Turkmen forces whereabouts of other pilot unknown.
 
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