Anarchist Bookfair 2013 October 19th

[sunny jim]

I think the problem here is that you, and possibly caroline1973, seem to have misunderstood the point that the guy at the Bookfair made to caroline. The main reason for that is that the guy at the Bookfair made the point in a way that might have been immediately clear to an anarchist but not so immediately clear to anyone that thinks of the NHS as a national treasure to be preserved at all costs, without necessarily thinking of it as a mainly State-led provision as it stands at the moment. That's an issue with the way the guy made the point - if he'd said it that way to me I'd probably have reacted in a similar way (or started laughing because of the Python-esque way it was delivered).

Do you mean the guy in question at the bookfair was a lifestyle anarcho primivitist type? I fail to see his beef with the NHS if he wasnt.

 

[Delroy Booth]

There's other arguments that go along the lines of "the NHS is the capitalist states way of subsidising the costs of maintaining and reproducing the labour force by making taxpayers rather than employers pay for the healthcare of the workers" or something

 

[cesare]

Do you mean the guy in question at the bookfair was a lifestyle anarcho primivitist type? I fail to see his beef with the NHS if he wasnt.

Not necessarily. But from the way that caroline1973 described it (and as revol68 ) noted, it was a crass way to make the point that (a) we don't need a state to provide free health care, and (b) support of <whatever> state-led provision lends credence and reliance on the State.

It's the kind of point to be made during a decent conversation, not as a throw-away comment to a stranger.

 

[sunny jim]

To play devils advocate* because providing world class universal free at the point of use healthcare for a nation of 60 million people is a gargantuan undertaking, that requires masses of material resources to be utilised and directed. It requires a huge amount of money, that needs to be reliable for years upon years in advance, not to mention the massive costs involved in researching and producing the drugs and other medical technologies, years upon years of training for doctors and nurses, the infastructure and follow up care and all the rest of it. This requires a lot of planning, which of course could be done democratically, but not without some degree of centralisation. Perhaps nationalisation is more suited to that kind of undertaking than people realise, as the state is in a much better position to provide those necessities than voluntary organisations of working class people? And wouldn't any democratic planning organisation that took on this role in an anarchist society end up becoming a de facto state or authority of some kind?

And as much as I admire what took place in revolutionary Spain, can it be compared in both scale and sophistication to the modern NHS? Has any anarchist society been able to come close to this? Furthermore would an anarchist reject the NHS in favour of a non-state organised system, even if that system was unable to provide the same high level of care we so often take for granted?

There's also another point which is the NHS was seen by Bevan and much of the democratic socialists who helped create it as an extension of the principles of mutual aid and collective provision into the post-war era. For them it was the logical conclusion to a centuries worth of experimentation and DIY mutualism in providing welfare system that has its roots in funeral societies and co-ops and so on. Which is why the insurance principle was rejected outright, and why it is based on medical need and not ability to pay, and even to this day in an otherwise neo-liberal society healthcare is not seen by British people as a commodity as it is in other societies that had state-backed private insurance healthcare systems.

*so don't necessarily take all this as if it's what I feel is best or ideal, just want to see what people think of this.

Its a very good question whether in an anarchist society a national free health care system would have worked, one we would have only known the answer to if the Spanish civil war/social revolution had had a totally different outcome ie the fascists were defeated by the libertarian communist militias and the Stalinist parties didnt get as powerful as they became. The idea was definitely there, but would it it have worked in practise? No one can be sure of the answer.

eta : It was working for 2.5 million people in the libcom/anarchist held areas in Catalonia as was explained in my earlier post, with the CNT having a 40,000 strong collective of doctors, nurses and other health workers.

 

[newbie]

This is a manifesto for politics as a personally satisfying howl into a void. A shout of rage as the method and more shouts of rage as the end goal. It's actually much more interesting in what it says about the politics at work here than the "kill all men" chant itself, which is too obviously silly to get worked up about.

That said, I'll take this lot over Guy Fawksist types throwing around slurs against transgendered people any day.

so will I.

Their politics may not stand up to scrutiny among those here with well developed, consistent and intellectually rigorous positions but for myself (with none of those) I have a great deal of sympathy for howls of rage, whether into the excitable void of twitter or into the face of a political opponent. I don't suppose I'm the only one on this rather middleaged board who did a fair amount of it once and I'm not going to take much issue with those with the passion now.

Soapboxing there, then on that particular issue was always going to be confrontational. I'm curious about how the various traditions represented here think such an obvious trigger provocation should be dealt with? If not howl him down then what, ignore him, strongarm him, debate with him, demand something of the organisers?

e2a them not him

 

[sunny jim]

There's other arguments that go along the lines of "the NHS is the capitalist states way of subsidising the costs of maintaining and reproducing the labour force by making taxpayers rather than employers pay for the healthcare of the workers" or something

I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.

 

[Jean-Luc]

There's other arguments that go along the lines of "the NHS is the capitalist states way of subsidising the costs of maintaining and reproducing the labour force by making taxpayers rather than employers pay for the healthcare of the workers" or something

Actually, strictly speaking and from an economic point of view, that's true under capitalism, but not a reason for opposing it, any more than for opposing any reform that benefits people under capitalism even if such reforms are always under pressure of being whittled away. It's actually a reason for getting rid of capitalism altogether so that there can be a fully free and secure health service (and other services)..

 

[caleb]

I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.

Jesus Christ mate, many of us rely - or have relied, or will - on the NHS but it's also possible to be critical of it and its function in capitalist society, to appreciate the fact it plays both a positive and negative role for the working class. Why do you think it was introduced, from the goodness of the heart's of the bourgeoisie? this is lowest common denominator shit, do you think we shouldnt say anything bad about it?

 

[Delroy Booth]

I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.

To be fair that's actually marxist as much as it is anarchist I believe. And maybe in a capitalist society the NHS does perform the role of reproducing the labour force and keeping it healthy. And perhaps it's better for companies and the ruling class that the costs of that are dealt with by the state? Even so I can live with that.

I had an eye infection recently. On my way home from the dole office I went into my GP surgery for an appointment. I walked in and asked for an appointment on thursday afternoon, and they got me one the very next morning. I got my appointment the next day, got a prescription for some eye-drops with antibiotics in them, and because I'm on JSA I didn't have to pay a penny. The whole experience from start to finish took less than 30 minutes and no-one at any point asked me about my financial status until it came to getting the prescription, which was of course free.

I know it sounds cheesy but as I was walking home from the surgery I could've fucking cried. I'd spent the last few days looking at the arguments over Obamacare in the USA and the grief and misery the healthcare costs in the USA cause people, and it's hard to believe that for all we've lost in this country in the last 30 years here in one little village in Yorkshire the system works.

Thanks Nye Bevan.

I swear to god I'd take up arms to defend the NHS. It's not just cheesy Labourist nostalgia is an incredible achievement.

 

[butchersapron]

The NHS represents the enclosure of collective health provision by capital and the state away from society - the return of that function to society doesn't mean getting rid of the NHS burning down hospitals, it means that it is put on a different footing and set of relationships. Pretty straightforward.

 

[JimW]

I came across a good Morris Brinton piece on the NHS from the 70s (after following a link to something else from here I think), where he looks at the bureaucratisation of it: http://radicalhistorynetwork.blogspot.com/2013/10/thoughts-of-maurice-brinton-on-nhs-1978.html

When Aneurin Bevan spoke of the NHS as inaugurating an era when ‘poverty would not be a disability, and wealth not an advantage’, he was speaking through his hat. He had himself described politics as ‘the language of priorities’. Those of a social structure that had only been tampered with were soon to assert themselves.

That NHS priorities over the last 10 years have been ‘wrong’ is certain. But the ‘errors’ were no accident. They were an essential feature of how bureaucratic societies function. They show the sort of issues such societies can sweep under the carpet, the sort of pressures they respond to, even the nature of their responses. People like health. They get angry when health facilities are cut back. The bureaucrat reasons that people won’t miss what they haven’t had. The lower limits of expenditure on health are therefore always determined by fears of political backlashes (i.e. lost votes).

 

[treelover]

Are the CNT ultra left enough for you?


From this website http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm

But isn't it the case that without their private training, there wouldn't have been all these trained doctors, nurses, etc. mutual aid is all very well, but who would train all the medics, etc and what about social care?

 

[cantsin]

I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.

seems a pretty obvious and self evident kernel of truth in that - do you think Atlee and co intro'd the NHS cos they were such benevolent reformists, or cos they knew they had to start rebuilding the most crucial part of capitalisms infrastructure sharpish - the workers. ?

 

[sunny jim]

Jesus Christ mate, many of us rely - or have relied, or will - on the NHS but it's also possible to be critical of it and its function in capitalist society, to appreciate the fact it plays both a positive and negative role for the working class. Why do you think it was introduced, from the goodness of the heart's of the bourgeoisie? this is lowest common denominator shit, do you think we shouldnt say anything bad about it?

Nye Bevin bourgeoisie? Seriously? A son of a coal miner and himself an ex coal miner, by definition, cant be bourgeoisie. He even resigned his position of health secretary when the Labour government introduced fees for eye and dental treatment. Dont confuse him with any New or Old Labour types of recent times, he's totally different from them and as for the actual bourgeoisie of the Tory Party he had this to say ......
"No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin"

I have got the upmost respect for the NHS after they saved my life twice, once when I had cancer 3 years ago and the other time this year when I had a serious kidney disease and so the only critical aspect I have of it is the PFI debacle and the gross underfunding and job losses that are happening in it. But those are problems with who's running it not the institution itself.

 

[DotCommunist]

'A son of a coal miner and himself an ex coal miner, by definition, cant be bourgeoisie.'

thats a bold contention

 

[sunny jim]

He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!

 

[redsquirrel]

It's like a right-on Heathers.

That makes these daft "fights" sound interesting though.

 

[butchersapron]

He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!

How about when he was quaffing champagne at Lord Beaverbrooks?

 

[Lo Siento.]

He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!

Class is a social relation etc.

 

[revol68]

He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!

Note your use of "from the bourgeoisie"...

the NHS wasn't actually produced by one individual and certainly wouldn't have happened if the "bourgeoisie" had saw no interest in it.

 

[Pickman's model]

How about when he was quaffing champagne at Lord Beaverbrooks?

that's not the sort of work someone of 13 should be doing either

 

[Pickman's model]

I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.

we should have a fragmented health system crippled by pfi debt and overburdened with an internal market and bureaucracy?

 

[The39thStep]

The issue for me is that a) I don't neccessarily think state provsion can be the only provision b) what ever the provsion it should have a huge imput from and accountability to users , their relatives and workers in how it is shaped.

 

[The39thStep]

Class is a social relation etc.

Love is a battlefield

 

[DotCommunist]

I wanna know what love is

 

[DotCommunist]

but I don't want 39steps to show me

 

[sunny jim]

How about when he was quaffing champagne at Lord Beaverbrooks?

The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.

 

[Lo Siento.]

The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.

Brendan Bracken said those things across Beaverbook's dinner table as Bevan was sat across it drinking the pro-fascist arsehole's champagne.

You Bollinger Bolshevik, you ritzy Robespierre, you lounge-lizard Lenin, look at you, swilling Max's champagne and calling yourself a socialist

 

[redsquirrel]

The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.

You seem to be confusing Aneurin Bevan and Ernest Bevin

 

[butchersapron]

The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.

This is Bevan we're talking about.