Oh God, it's going to go all lauriepenny now... Can anyone be arsed..?
Anarchist Bookfair 2013 October 19th
- Thread starter jakethesnake
- Start date
ska invita
back on the other side
bit sexist to presume its menz iznt it?
even Sam only went there for the badges it sounds like (she did get two, so thats not bad going, according to twitter she "didn't even get to see any literature")
i like how she illustrated her post about the bookfair with this:
and then went on to justify her Kill All Men thing as being forced to ignore reasonable debate, backed with "we don’t give a shit about the average man". i recommend a bit more of the sticking together.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
bit sexist to presume its menz iznt it?
even Sam only went there for the badges it sounds like (she did get two, so thats not bad going)
i like how she illustrated her post about the bookfair with this:
and then went on to justify her Kill All Men thing as being forced to ignore reasonable debate, backed with "we don’t give a shit about the average man". i recommend a bit more of the sticking together.
seventh bullet
sovietwave
Who says 'menz' in real life? I suppose being normalz is pretty cool in that sense.
love detective
there's no love too small
small whiskies all round
Nigel Irritable
Five, Ten, Fifteen Years
That's a bit of a cheap shot.
DaveCinzano
WATCH OUT, GEORGE, HE'S GOT A SCREWDRIVER!
Belushi's not going to break it down for you in a language you understand. He's expressing himself, nothing more, nothing less.
fogbat
The Talibum
bit sexist to presume its menz iznt it?
even Sam only went there for the badges it sounds like (she did get two, so thats not bad going, according to twitter she "didn't even get to see any literature")
i like how she illustrated her post about the bookfair with this:
and then went on to justify her Kill All Men thing as being forced to ignore reasonable debate, backed with "we don’t give a shit about the average man". i recommend a bit more of the sticking together.
Is that a robot fist in the bottom right? Cyborg solidarity?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i think the whole is supposed to be some sort of throwing star
fogbat
The Talibum
I think you need to check your organic privilege.
caroline1973
Well-Known Member
I wasn't too impressed with the guy who told me that by 'defending the nhs is defending your own oppression'
revol68
what, fucking what?
Standard ultra left position, bit crass but there is a point there.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Be a big shame if he got ill then.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Are the CNT ultra left enough for you?
From this website http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm
revol68
what, fucking what?
What relation does that bear to the NHS, now or indeed ever?
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Just the idea of free health care not just being a democratic socialist idea, but an idea thought of by anarchists before that.
But apologies if I've misunderstood your point about the NHS being oppressive in some way or form. (Its late and I'm a bit tired)
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
The nhs is state managed rationing of health care, the cnt example was mutual aid.
What's wrong with ultra left?
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
Nothing is wrong with the ultra left. I was just saying the provision of free health care shouldn't be dismissed as just a democratic socialist idea to answer this point from caroline1973
↑"I wasn't too impressed with the guy who told me that by 'defending the nhs is defending your own oppression'"
And this point by revol68
"Standard ultra left position, bit crass but there is a point there"
barney_pig
Po-cha-na-quar-hip
Neither myself, revol68, nor afaict the chap at book fair has any problem with free health care. Why would you feel such provision can only be provided by the state?
If you were replying to caroline1973, then quoting her rather than revol68 would have been clearer.
If you were replying to caroline1973, then quoting her rather than revol68 would have been clearer.
To play devils advocate* because providing world class universal free at the point of use healthcare for a nation of 60 million people is a gargantuan undertaking, that requires masses of material resources to be utilised and directed. It requires a huge amount of money, that needs to be reliable for years upon years in advance, not to mention the massive costs involved in researching and producing the drugs and other medical technologies, years upon years of training for doctors and nurses, the infastructure and follow up care and all the rest of it. This requires a lot of planning, which of course could be done democratically, but not without some degree of centralisation. Perhaps nationalisation is more suited to that kind of undertaking than people realise, as the state is in a much better position to provide those necessities than voluntary organisations of working class people? And wouldn't any democratic planning organisation that took on this role in an anarchist society end up becoming a de facto state or authority of some kind?
And as much as I admire what took place in revolutionary Spain, can it be compared in both scale and sophistication to the modern NHS? Has any anarchist society been able to come close to this? Furthermore would an anarchist reject the NHS in favour of a non-state organised system, even if that system was unable to provide the same high level of care we so often take for granted?
There's also another point which is the NHS was seen by Bevan and much of the democratic socialists who helped create it as an extension of the principles of mutual aid and collective provision into the post-war era. For them it was the logical conclusion to a centuries worth of experimentation and DIY mutualism in providing welfare system that has its roots in funeral societies and co-ops and so on. Which is why the insurance principle was rejected outright, and why it is based on medical need and not ability to pay, and even to this day in an otherwise neo-liberal society healthcare is not seen by British people as a commodity as it is in other societies that had state-backed private insurance healthcare systems.
*so don't necessarily take all this as if it's what I feel is best or ideal, just want to see what people think of this.
As for the Anarchist bookfair rows, it seems like the stuff which was restricted to the internet making its presence felt. They're not going away infact the rhetoric is basically all out war against any anarchist who doesn't conform to their notions of fighting the Kyriarchy. It's quite explicit you're either with us or against us stuff I don't think it's possible for these to co-exist without it becoming an utter and total farce.
I know people will say "it's just a small minority of idiots" and perhaps that's true but I don't share that optimism. I already think for a lot of young people with a vague interest in radical politics Anarchism means something very different to what it's historically meant.
Then you've got the anonymous/wikileaks people, who are fucking awful too infact given the choice i'd much rather have the worst intersectionalista brat than some of these Assange groupies. They really are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.
Would I be a pessimist or a realist if I said it looks more and more like this movement is a total dead end in terms of instigating substantive political change? And I really take no pleasure in it whatsoever before anyone suggests otherwise.
sunny jim
A pikey fluffy type
If you look at my post 409, you'll see I was giving an example of free health care being provided by the CNT, who could be classed as ultra left. So I obviously havent said health care can only be provided by the state. Which bit of that cant you understand?
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I think the problem here is that you, and possibly caroline1973, seem to have misunderstood the point that the guy at the Bookfair made to caroline. The main reason for that is that the guy at the Bookfair made the point in a way that might have been immediately clear to an anarchist but not so immediately clear to anyone that thinks of the NHS as a national treasure to be preserved at all costs, without necessarily thinking of it as a mainly State-led provision as it stands at the moment. That's an issue with the way the guy made the point - if he'd said it that way to me I'd probably have reacted in a similar way (or started laughing because of the Python-esque way it was delivered).
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
Delroy Booth Were you at the Bookfair?
No I'm just going on what i've read on here and a few other blogs.
I've been to a few up north but never in London.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
It doesn't really matter.
Yes, it may be that the "anarchist scene" is infected with this shite for a generation, perhaps even to the point of paralysing the orgs. But it's survived worse. Hippies in the 60s, pacifists in the 70s, "Punx" in the 80s. Another generation will come along and discover the ideas hidden in the dusty old pamphlets hawked by the old guys with beards at demos. C'est la vie.
Away from the scene, and away from the bubble of twitter activism, nobody gives a shit about any of this, for good or bad, and are getting on with their lives. This is where the battle is.
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