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Anarchism. 'Organisation'? 'Leadership'?

No. I just don't know how you'd manage to organise society like this except on a very small scale, because not everyone would see the threats as a threat, etc... - i'm willing to be proved wrong though :)
its just that someone on my facebook just wrote that they hoped anarchism could be achieved but "gradually" without a revolution - when tbh that might be the only way of achieving it


also once it was established how would you maintain an anarchist society, how would you deal with troublemakers etc if there was no police etc - i know that it would be organised within the community, but how would you stop people who did discipline (for lack of a better word) people who were causing trouble in the community etc from getting too much power, ie what would act as a check on them? ive probably asked this a long time ago but i probably forgot what the answer was and im still genuinely curious btw
 
I'm pretty sure a lot of communists say this too, since money is a rationing system.
I stand corrected. My knowledge of the left in general, is very limited, I can only speak with any certainty about the SWP.

In the SWP, there was enough of a split, to have a debate about at Marxism one-time. But it wasn't really taken seriously. It was a bit of one of those joke debates, like Will we have competitive sport in communism?.

I don't want to go off into a debate about money, though. My position is, money is a tool. Just like a hammer, it can be used to stove somebody's head in, but it can also be used to build things. It has no inherent positive or negative value. If it is of use, we will use it, if it isn't, we won't. But as I say, I'm not really interested in this discussion, if you don't mind.



Yeah, I once read a great article by a German academic(!) who argued that like any living thing, a democratic society isn't an 'end state', it's a continually evolving thing, and that once people started thinking 'Hey! We've arrived!' that's when it would all fall apart and get nasty, really quickly.
yes I understand your point. I think there is a meeting on my website with John Molineaux speaking about dialectical materialism where I ask him, if the contradictions of class society have been removed, what would be the driving force for dynamism, why would society continue to evolve? His answer was something like, because of the dialectic with nature. His answer was more materialist, your academics more Hegelian, but I think essentially they make the same point.


I know a lot of people refer to anarchism as 'libertarian socialism', but I think that labels like communist, socialist reflect specific, structured ideologies when applied practically, with all the potential for horror that implies, whereas anarchism is more a loosely bound set of ideas & principles.
I disagree. I'm with Aristotle [I think it's him, I always get them three Greek fuckers mixed up.]. If you cannot have common terms of reference, you cannot even learn/debate.

Whether you agree with my ideology, and I agree with your ideology, we have to work out a language with which communicate. That was the point I ETAed in the OP.
 
see my edit - after spending god knows how many years on this board with you butchers and the others i dont think anarchists are pactifists at all :D
 
I just don't know how you'd set up and maintain an anarchist society without the use of force tbh.
Who says you can't use "force", and how do you define it?
If you're part of an anarchist community, you're not disbarred from collectively using force to resist those from outside your community who might want to invade it, neither are you disbarred from collectively mandating a defence or a "policing" system.
I think it's a great idea and I hope it can work one day, but at present I just don't think it's possible tbh (and experiments in setting up anarchist societies were crushed within a few years ie in Spain etc) and I just don't know how you'd prevent this and get people sufficiently organised to defend themselves against the inevitable attack - and believe me there would be.
Of course there would. Capital can't take slights lying down. People might get ideas.
 
Who says you can't use "force", and how do you define it?
If you're part of an anarchist community, you're not disbarred from collectively using force to resist those from outside your community who might want to invade it, neither are you disbarred from collectively mandating a defence or a "policing" system.

Of course there would. Capital can't take slights lying down. People might get ideas.

right, but how would you stop the individuals who became the "police" from assuming too much power and assuming a similar role to the one today (ie who served the interests of , if not the gov't, then powerful people in the community)

agree with your last line completely btw!
 
The same way that you'd prevent anyone in a position of authority from assuming too much power - vote* them out of their role.


* shorthand for 'engage in a process that may or may not involve voting, but would be appropriate for the conditions & situation, while remaining democratic.
 
The same way that you'd prevent anyone in a position of authority from assuming too much power - vote* them out of their role.


* shorthand for 'engage in a process that may or may not involve voting, but would be appropriate for the conditions & situation, while remaining democratic.
Ah,, GOOD! That's cleared something up. So there will be structures, societal structures, in this instance, societal structures to negate the possibility of power accumulation, in anarchism.

I felt there had to be, but that has not always been clear from how people have spoke about anarchism on here.
 
Do you know what I've often thought would be the model for a cits militia? The 'club' system the the Dwellers have that Banks explores in The Algebraist.

Haha! Yeah, that'd be great. Then again they hunted their young'uns. Not sure I wanna see that.
 
Ah,, GOOD! That's cleared something up. So there will be structures, societal structures, in this instance, societal structures to negate the possibility of power accumulation, in anarchism.

I felt there had to be, but that has not always been clear from how people have spoke about anarchism on here.

Yes, but not in a constituted (thanks BA!) way. The response/s would be linked to the issue in question, and while the same procedure/s might (probably would) be used, there wouldn't be a 'law' that said 'when X&Y happen, you must do this to resolve the situation'.

'Good habits, good habitus' might be a way to describe it - people would become used to the practicalities of resolving these issues on their own, without having to refer up to some authority for philosophical or other kind of approval, or refer back to a text for guidance.

So structure, yes, but less a collection of girders, and more a re-assemble-able toolkit of tubes & joints.
 
Ah,, GOOD! That's cleared something up. So there will be structures, societal structures, in this instance, societal structures to negate the possibility of power accumulation, in anarchism.

I felt there had to be, but that has not always been clear from how people have spoke about anarchism on here.

Of course there would.

There would also be leaders within an "anarchist" society. However they would ideally mainly be in that position because of good ideas and a bit of drive, they would not always be the same as the administrators and they would always be accountable and recallable.
 
Yes, but not in a constituted (thanks BA!) way. The response/s would be linked to the issue in question, and while the same procedure/s might (probably would) be used, there wouldn't be a 'law' that said 'when X&Y happen, you must do this to resolve the situation'.

'Good habits, good habitus' might be a way to describe it - people would become used to the practicalities of resolving these issues on their own, without having to refer up to some authority for philosophical or other kind of approval, or refer back to a text for guidance.

So structure, yes, but less a collection of girders, and more a re-assemble-able toolkit of tubes & joints.

Sticklebricks, kyser. Sticklebricks. :cool:
 
Thats all very well until somebody rocks up with Fast air. or 3rd shock army chechins did give them a spanking the first time.
2nd time chechya burned:(

which is why it should be an army of expedience if you like- first the victory to take the big toys then the big toys to hold the gains.
 
Of course there would.

There would also be leaders within an "anarchist" society. However they would ideally mainly be in that position because of good ideas and a bit of drive, they would not always be the same as the administrators and they would always be accountable and recallable.

In my experience that sort of talent isn't readily available in todays anarchist scene.
 
Yes, but not in a constituted (thanks BA!) way. The response/s would be linked to the issue in question, and while the same procedure/s might (probably would) be used, there wouldn't be a 'law' that said 'when X&Y happen, you must do this to resolve the situation'.

'Good habits, good habitus' might be a way to describe it - people would become used to the practicalities of resolving these issues on their own, without having to refer up to some authority for philosophical or other kind of approval, or refer back to a text for guidance.

So structure, yes, but less a collection of girders, and more a re-assemble-able toolkit of tubes & joints.
No, that makes absolute sense. It's common sense that, along with the changes in the material base, the changes in the ideological superstructure, over enough time, would virtually make the need for any 'state like' structures of compulsion obsolete. It would just be the way.

Just say you did have a manager, an architect, who was controlling the work process........ Ooooooooh er, bad choice of word. Just say you did have a manager, an architect, who was directing the work process of many workers. He wouldn't need any compulsion to stand down, if that's what enough people wanted, he would just do it.

However, in the time of transition, workers autonomous zones etc there would need to be substructures wouldn't there? In this period, the ideological superstructure of everybody, would not have changed. The working class, may have en masse change their ideological superstructure, as the process of revolution would revolutionise also the way they thought about world, but wouldn't they have to impose their will on and remaining capitalists, fascists, whatever?

Anarchism is a process, and an end. It is endlessly 'becoming' something, but never being fixed in a specific shape.

Nope, that's not plain English, that's hippy.

Most anarchists would probably argue against that. Anarchism is a process: the means and ends being indivisible. :)
you see, this is part of the problem for me/others. When you talk about anarchism, anarchism is 1. What you do here in the present. 2. What you do in the period of transition. 3. The future form of society, stateless classless etc. 4. And possibly even something beyond that. Now I do have an inkling about the underpinning philosophical/organisational/truism reasons for that, but I it's confusing to know which one 1, 2, 3, or 4 you are talking about. This is an important distinction, because each period, as you acknowledge yourself, will need different practices.
I think for clarity, I might slip into the usage of now anarchism, transition anarchism, stateless anarchism, when looking at specific periods of the process.





Out of the two above, I think I prefer the hippy one. The invisible but it still makes no sense to me. I would still really like people to put this into their own words. It does sound very dialectical to me, and I know you will reject that.

I think also, there is a bit of pedantacism. for while the questioning of my 'end objective is a stateles classes society' may have made a point, in the context of my original use of the sentence, stateless classless society is the end objective of this generation of anarchists, because we can have no terms of reference as to what any society beyond that may be. Plus, it was clearly how I intended the sentence to be understood. If I am forced to reword it, I think I would say, there is clearly an intermediate destination/obejective anarchism has in its crossfires, a stateless classless society. Would people object to that?
 
You think anarchists are pacifists?

is not the concern more that non hierarchical organizing may be effective as a way to manage resources/society, but is unilkely to be successful against violent organised top down opposition, and that temporary hierarchies established to address this may be very difficult to dismantle if we win
 
is not the concern more that non hierarchical organizing may be effective as a way to manage resources/society, but is unilkely to be successful against violent organised top down opposition, and that temporary hierarchies established to address this may be very difficult to dismantle if we win

yeah, that was the point i was making really smokedout.

what would your answer to this be?
my point too! sort of.
However, in the time of transition, workers autonomous zones etc there would need to be such structures wouldn't there? In this period, the ideological superstructure of everybody, would not have changed. The working class, may have en masse change their ideological superstructure, as the process of revolution would revolutionise also the way they thought about world, but wouldn't they have to impose their will on and remaining capitalists, fascists, whatever?
 
Now I just need to be clear on this. I think both anarchists and Communists agree, there will be a period of transition from capitalism to anarchism/communism. Anarchism/communism is essentially an end objective, a completely classless, stateless society. Anarchist MAY describe this period transition, as 'the period of workers autonomous zones', socialists DO describe this period as the period of the workers state. But the point above I'm trying to make is about the period of anarchism/communism, one classless, and stateless society.
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eta. I suppose my question may be framed clearer as, do people believe like me anarchism and communism as a classless, and stateless society are essentially the same thing? Or do people believe there will still be distinction/s between a Communist classless stateless society, and an anarchist classless stateless society?

Whilst I don't accept the idea that anarchism is an end (rather it's the means and the ends), in principle, I don't think what you describe as an anarchist classless stateless society would be different from a communist classless stateless society. The two issues I would have, though, are:

First, I have serious doubts as to how easy it would be to move from the so-called workers state to the classless stateless society. I think the lessons of history needs to be listened to, here.

Secondly, I reject the idea of a workers state, because, even if you see it only as a means to an end, I don't agree that the ends justifies those means, neither philosophically nor practically.
 
Whilst I don't accept the idea that anarchism is an end (rather it's the means and the ends), in principle, I don't think what you describe as an anarchist classless stateless society would be different from a communist classless stateless society. The two issues I would have, though, are:

First, I have serious doubts as to how easy it would be to move from the so-called workers state to the classless stateless society. I think the lessons of history needs to be listened to, here.

Secondly, I reject the idea of a workers state, because, even if you see it only as a means to an end, I don't agree that the ends justifies those means, neither philosophically nor practically.

The way things are looking, everybody is going to have all the time in the world to agonise over these kind of questions.
 
The way things are looking, everybody is going to have all the time in the world to agonise over these kind of questions.

We seem to have come full circle; my initial discussion with rmp3 was borne out of me saying that naval-gazing over the finer points of dialectical materialism is a distraction from much needed practical action.

To me, a weakness of rmp3's approach is that, because it is focused on the ends, it requires a good understanding of the destination before the journey can start. On the other hand, another strength of anarchism is that, because it's as much about means as it is about the ends, we can all start the journey today, as long as we travel in broadly the right direction (even if not on exactly the same path), and in a manner which is consistent with traveling that way.
 
We seem to have come full circle; my initial discussion with rmp3 was borne out of me saying that naval-gazing over the finer points of dialectical materialism is a distraction from much needed practical action.

To me, a weakness of rmp3's approach is that, because it is focused on the ends, it requires a good understanding of the destination before the journey can start. On the other hand, another strength of anarchism is that, because it's as much about means as it is about the ends, we can all start the journey today, as long as we travel in broadly the right direction (even if not on exactly the same path), and in a manner which is consistent with traveling that way.


Maybe- but I wasn't referring to the discussion.
 
We seem to have come full circle; my initial discussion with rmp3 was borne out of me saying that naval-gazing over the finer points of dialectical materialism is a distraction from much needed practical action.

To me, a weakness of rmp3's approach is that, because it is focused on the ends, it requires a good understanding of the destination before the journey can start. On the other hand, another strength of anarchism is that, because it's as much about means as it is about the ends, we can all start the journey today, as long as we travel in broadly the right direction (even if not on exactly the same path), and in a manner which is consistent with traveling that way.

I must admit I do like to find out about places before I travel there and how I am going to get there.
 
I must admit I do like to find out about places before I travel there and how I am going to get there.



Every journey begins with a small step. What was your step towards anarchism today? Myself, I nicked a Wispa bar from Netto. They should be paying us to eat this shit.
 
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