America going soft on capital punishment

[SpookyFrank]

Sounds like they went and did it in the worst possible way. I would have thought that it'd be done by placing the condemned in a sealed room and replacing the normal air mix in there with pure nitrogen for no less than half an hour; although according to a brief look on Google the world record breath holder went for 24 mins and 37 secs, so let's call it a full hour to maximise the margin for error. With thick steel walls there wouldn't even need to be restraints once they're locked inside. The condemned should be informed that holding their breath will mean that the next lungful they inevitably take will be one of pure N2.

But no, they're still fucking it up with pseudo-medical bullshit like face masks and tying them down to a gurney. They're too incompetent or too determined to make an idiotic spectacle out of the event, possibly both.

Or just, you know, don't kill people at all.

 

[weltweit]

Forgive my ignorance, but as a fan of Oz (the first HBO 60m drama, not the magical fairyland ruled by the lazy witch Glinda), one death row inmate requests death by firing squad, and it is granted by the prison governor. The prison officers believe it is sick, but nevertheless volunteer alongside the hired executioner, and the deed is done. Soon after, the unnamed state bans any future such executions. Is there a reason this isn't a thing in the gun-loving US-of-A?

I was just coming to say that sort of thing, why muck about with electric chairs or nitrogen, why not just shoot them in the head with a handgun. Low cost high certainty, job done.

 

[hash tag]

I was just coming to say that sort of thing, why muck about with electric chairs or nitrogen, why not just shoot them in the head with a handgun. Low cost high certainty, job done.

Far too messy. America doesn't have the stomach for it.

 

[weltweit]

Far too messy. America doesn't have the stomach for it.

I would have thought a momentary shot and job done - would be a lot better for the stomach than watching a man convulse for 14 long minutes as he is slowly asphyxiated while his lungs are filled with nitrogen.

 

[hash tag]

I would have thought a momentary shot and job done - would be a lot better for the stomach than watching a man convulse for 14 long minutes as he is slowly asphyxiated while his lungs are filled with nitrogen.

No blood or guts. It's more clinical. I'm sure they don't see it that way.

 

[PTK]

A couple of the thing that are disgusting is that this man had been on death row in decades, and that they had tried and failed to execute him two years ago.

 

[hash tag]

A couple of the thing that are disgusting is that this man had been on death row in decades, and that they had tried and failed to execute him two years ago.

Legalised murder is not good.
The average time on DR is probably in the region of 15 years. Don't forget the jury recommended clemency and there is no proof he committed the actual murder.

 

[hash tag]

Thinking about it, many states have had a moratorium on the death penalty. I imagine the average time on death row had grown.

 

[weltweit]

I am no fan of the death penalty, no way back for the innocent, but if you are going to do it you might as well do it quickly.

 

[weltweit]

Capital punishment in China - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Firing squad, and more recently also lethal injection

 

[8ball]

Legalised murder is not good.

Legalised kidnapping is fine?

 

[weltweit]

I was thinking of something like this:

File:Execution of Nguyen Van Lem.jpg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Spymaster]

Legalised murder ...

No such thing. That's an oxymoron.

 

[ouirdeaux]

Legalised kidnapping is fine?

I've always found this objection to capital punishment illogical. As you say, by this reasoning, imprisonment is legalised kidnapping. Fines are legalised theft.

We accept -- at least most of us do -- that governments are permitted to do things to punish people who break laws with sanctions that would not be acceptable if private individuals carried them out.

The main objection to capital punishment, in my mind, is that innocent people might be put to death. Something it's hard to get around.

 

[8ball]

I've always found this objection to capital punishment illogical. As you say, by this reasoning, imprisonment is legalised kidnapping. Fines are legalised theft.

We accept -- at least most of us do -- that governments are permitted to do things to punish people who break laws with sanctions that would not be acceptable if private individuals carried them out.

The main objection to capital punishment, in my mind, is that innocent people might be put to death. Something it's hard to get around.

Innocent people can also spend the rest of their life in prison.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

My principal objection to CP has nothing to do with what a person might deserve. It has to do with who and what we should want to be as people. I see abolition of CP as uncontionally good. It makes us better. To instruct one person to kill another in cold blood diminishes us all.

I would be implacably opposed even if magic could give us 100% knowledge of guilt. Nobody deserves to be turned into an executioner.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No such thing. That's an oxymoron.

In many ways, CP is worse. It is killing in the coldest blood possible. A death with a timetable, with procedures, carried out against a person who is already your prisoner and totally under your control.

It's just about the most shameful act I can imagine.

 

[Raheem]

Innocent people can also spend the rest of their life in prison.

True, but would it really be better to kill them?

 

[weltweit]

Andrew Malkinson was wrongfully convicted in 2003 for raping a woman in Little Hulton, in Salford. Despite him not fitting the description given by witnesses, he was given a life sentence and spent 17 years in prison before new evidence proved his innocence.29 Dec 2023

Mr Malkinson was released from jail in December 2020 but was under close watch by police and his name was still on the sex offenders register. He has now described his current financial hardship where he revealed he was "living on benefits" and criticised the current route to compensation.27 Jul 2023

The 57-year-old's conviction for raping a young mother in July 2003 was quashed by the Court of Appeal last month, after DNA analysis associated the crime with someone else. Mr Malkinson, who is based in Seville, in Spain, is relying on benefits while he waits for compensation for his wrongful imprisonment.19 Oct 2023

 

[8ball]

True, but would it really be better to kill them?

They’re still dead at the end, they just have a really shitty time in the long lead up to it.

 

[Raheem]

They’re still dead at the end, they just have a really shitty time in the long lead up to it.

 

[8ball]

Which of these people died in prison?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Which of these people died in prison?

I guess the lesson there is that while you're still alive there is still a chance that you won't spend the rest of your life in prison.

I don't advocate 'life should mean life' either, fwiw. I like the Norwegian system. However bad the crime you have been convicted of, your incarceration will receive a review at some point (in Norway's case, that's after no more than 21 years). I think the Norwegians are better than us in this regard. They don't keep people locked up for decades on end for the sake of it. They only do so if they consider the person to be an ongoing danger to the rest of society.

 

[xenon]

there are people who frankly do not deserve to live. But I am against capital punishment for various reasons. The chance of miscarriage of justice is an easy one. But also the performative cruelty, the fundamental relationship between state and individual.

 

[Mattym]

A couple of the thing that are disgusting is that this man had been on death row in decades, and that they had tried and failed to execute him two years ago.

Exactly, if the state fails to execute you, then you should be free to go or at least put on parole.
If you as a murderer fail to kill a person, you're more than likely not going to return to finish the job (I know it happens some times- gangsters etc), so why should the state have that luxury. Bastards!

 

[Spymaster]

In many ways, CP is worse. It is killing in the coldest blood possible. A death with a timetable, with procedures, carried out against a person who is already your prisoner and totally under your control.

It's just about the most shameful act I can imagine.

Your stance has always been the most difficult to argue against on this because it disregards most of the contentious aspects and simply boils down to "It makes us people who I don't want us to be", which is a pretty bulletproof individual position. It is however, precisely what separates judicial killing from murder. If a killing is to be considered by its seemliness, then there is the gulf in propriety to overcome between, for instance, the rape/murder of a child, and the execution of the perpetrator after judicial process, by majority consent of the people of the jurisdiction.

Nothwithstanding that, the point regarding the silly "legalised murder", "legalised kidnapping", etc, remains. The acts are legally defined and by definition must be unlawful. If something is legalised it cannot be unlawful by any sensible measure.

 

[Spymaster]

Exactly, if the state fails to execute you, then you should be free to go or at least put on parole.
If you as a murderer fail to kill a person, you're more than likely not going to return to finish the job (I know it happens some times- gangsters etc), so why should the state have that luxury. Bastards!

This is quite possibly the most ludicrous argument against CP that I've ever seen

 

[hash tag]

Innocent people can also spend the rest of their life in prison.

Where there is life there is hope List of exonerated death row inmates - Wikipedia

Kris's case is particularly troubling. Everything I have read says to me is innocent. he was on death row and has had that commuted to life
but he still shouldn't be there

Krishna Maharaj - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

from Clive Stafford Smith "I’ve been involved in more than 400 capital cases over the years, and Kris’ is the greatest injustice of them all."

 

[Spymaster]

I guess the lesson there is that while you're still alive there is still a chance that you won't spend the rest of your life in prison.

I don't advocate 'life should mean life' either, fwiw. I like the Norwegian system. However bad the crime you have been convicted of, your incarceration will receive a review at some point (in Norway's case, that's after no more than 21 years). I think the Norwegians are better than us in this regard. They don't keep people locked up for decades on end for the sake of it. They only do so if they consider the person to be an ongoing danger to the rest of society.

I despise the Norwegian system and think that to give any hope whatsoever to people like Breivik, that they will ever be released, is an affront to their victims.

If "life" could truly mean life without parole, without exception (unless a MOJ is proven), my limited support of CP would reduce enormously, but there'd always be a risk that someone like you comes to power and eventually lets them out!

 

[8ball]

Where there is life there is hope List of exonerated death row inmates - Wikipedia

Kris's case is particularly troubling. Everything I have read says to me is innocent. he was on death row and has had that commuted to life
but he still shouldn't be there

Krishna Maharaj - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

from Clive Stafford Smith "I’ve been involved in more than 400 capital cases over the years, and Kris’ is the greatest injustice of them all."

With every miscarriage of justice something is lost permanently - how much and what is lost is purely a matter of degree.

Decades of someone’s life may be lost permanently, even if they are later found innocent. They may live under a pall of suspicion even after their release. Or of course they may just die in prison.

The answer to this is to address the causes of miscarriages of justice rather than imprison them with your fingers crossed behind your back and hope they aren’t found innocent later.