8ball
1,200 lights
I think it’s going to be hard to assess what a murderer’s victims think about their killer being released if he renounces his noxious philosophy and is determined to no longer be a threat to others.
America going soft on capital punishment
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I think it’s going to be hard to assess what a murderer’s victims think about their killer being released if he renounces his noxious philosophy and is determined to no longer be a threat to others.
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Books, not bombs
On the one side of this, this is not only the victim of a miscarriage of justice to consider but their family and friends also.
On the other side of this is the wronged person and their family and friends who will not have seen the person responsible person brought to justice.
Then if course, the actual perpetrator remains free maybe even to commit further crimes.
With science and technology, there should be far fewer miscarriages of justice but they still can happen.
Also, there is no equality in the legal system and probably never will be. Money can buy you "justice", Ie freedom, liberty or leniency.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
while some people really do deserve a bullet that is an extremely dark path to tread and the state killing people who it has at it's Mercy mercy . Given the US death row has at best and 4% of people on it innocent a lot got shitty trials with no or little defence any high profile case school shooter serial killer terrorists etc almost always don't get the death penality it's a sanction armed at the poor who commit mundane murders.
the attempt to make it a medical like procedure makes it even more horrifying if it has to be done bullet in the back of head job done. Better it doesn't get done punishment isn't a detterence if brevik is ever let out it will be because the POS has denounced his odious beliefs and isn't the same person as the man who went to jail if he doesn't the the norwegains will keep him in jail,
the attempt to make it a medical like procedure makes it even more horrifying if it has to be done bullet in the back of head job done. Better it doesn't get done punishment isn't a detterence if brevik is ever let out it will be because the POS has denounced his odious beliefs and isn't the same person as the man who went to jail if he doesn't the the norwegains will keep him in jail,
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Books, not bombs
All the people who are on death row, not just in America, but world wide surely prooves that the DP is not a deterrent. The DP is retribution.
Another interesting case. A 67 year old former legal secretary and granny on DR for drug smuggling. Death by firing squad.
en.m.wikipedia.org
Another interesting case. A 67 year old former legal secretary and granny on DR for drug smuggling. Death by firing squad.
Lindsay Sandiford - Wikipedia
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
It does nothing of the sort. It simply shows that the DP didn't deter those crimes.
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Books, not bombs
Nearly 2500 that were caught, had poor defence and found guilty.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
That's not a deterrence argument though is it.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
punishment doesn't work it certainly doesn't deter we KNOW that Victorian times had much harsher punishments and a much higher crime rate.
what works is people getting caught and when you have the poor sod banged up making them do something anything vaugely productive so they address their offending behaviour.
the rest is daily mail wankathons.
if sharing a cell with a complete stranger and a small TV with an old paystation or Xbox and constant tea and pot noodles is your version of a holiday camp your life must be a bit shit. prison is boring and occasionally scary the service does it's best to keep people safe and doing something useful but it's on the last call for public funding and most politicans neither understand or care about prisons.
what works is people getting caught and when you have the poor sod banged up making them do something anything vaugely productive so they address their offending behaviour.
the rest is daily mail wankathons.
if sharing a cell with a complete stranger and a small TV with an old paystation or Xbox and constant tea and pot noodles is your version of a holiday camp your life must be a bit shit. prison is boring and occasionally scary the service does it's best to keep people safe and doing something useful but it's on the last call for public funding and most politicans neither understand or care about prisons.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Punishment most definitely works as a deterrent. The reason that I don't rob a bank tomorrow, or beat the crap out of my annoying neighbour, is purely because I don't want to go to prison. Less clear is whether harsher punishments deter crime more than less harsh ones.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
But thats because you grasp the concept of CONSQUENCES!
prisoners generally don't that's why detterrence doesn't work. you not planning to Rob a bank anyways because your scared of getting caught you don't want to terrify random people and you don't think it's really worth it.
conversation I had in prison my jast job netted me 5 Grand but you've ended up in jail you'd make more money working at McDonald's
prisoners generally don't that's why detterrence doesn't work. you not planning to Rob a bank anyways because your scared of getting caught you don't want to terrify random people and you don't think it's really worth it.
conversation I had in prison my jast job netted me 5 Grand but you've ended up in jail you'd make more money working at McDonald's
8ball
1,200 lights
I think it’s pretty clear that people respond to incentives, and that it’s also pretty clear that if the sentence for aggravated assault was more in line with the punishment for a first time shoplifting offense, then your annoying neighbour would have a lot more to worry about.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
So, we're agreed that punishment is a deterrent for those who 'grasp the concept of consequences'. I'd stick my neck out and say that's probably most people.
I don't think even the most liberal voices on law and order have ever argued that punishment is no deterrent to any crime. The more relevant point is whether capital punishment is a deterrent to murder.
8ball
1,200 lights
I think it’s very rare that basically mentally competent adults don’t grasp the concept of consequences, except perhaps in moments of rage or intoxication.
More commonly, they have contempt for the individuals and institutions that implement them.
People do vary in terms of impulse control and propensity for risk-taking and thrill-seeking behaviour, but that’s a different matter.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Yes. Or they're prepared to run the risk of the consequences.
8ball
1,200 lights
Yeah, you missed my edit (my fault - should have thought more before clicking ‘post’).
Brainaddict
slight system overdrive
If you want to know if the death penalty 'works' as deterrent you could always just... look it up? We're hardly the first people to ask the question.
8ball
1,200 lights
Try making murder suddenly legal in a country that currently has the death penalty and you’ll see whether there is a deterrent effect.
The results shown here are exactly as you’d expect - as inconsistent as the answers you’d get as to whether people preferred a lifetime in prison or to be put out of their misery.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Been done loads of times on here. It basically comes down to the same thing each time. It deters some crimes and not others. You could take a look at the huge spike in violent crime (ex murder) in the UK after the abolition of the death penalty and draw the conclusion that people were more prepared to "tool-up" knowing that they wouldn't be hanged if they accidentally killed someone etc etc.
All that aside though, deterrence is just a minor aspect which may or may not bolster an argument that stands on other merits anyway.
8ball
1,200 lights
Which particular argument are you referring to?
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Capital punishment.
8ball
1,200 lights
That’s not an argument.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Ok. The argument in favour of capital punishment.
Mostly agree. But the fear of being caught ergo consequences, being punished, does deter a lot of people from committing crimes. Petty ones mostly.
8ball
1,200 lights
Which argument?
You said deterrence may or may not bolster an argument that stands on its own merits.
Deterrence is one of the arguments for capital punishment. Which you concede has dubious merits. So which argument is the one being bolstered (or not) - ie. which is the one that you consider to stand on its own merits?
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
For me, the main one is weight of punishment and proportionality. Some crimes are so heinous that the perpetrator must forfeit the right to ever live in general society again. Let's take Anders Breivik as an example since he's already been mentioned. The prospect of him ever being released disgusts me. A proportional response would be to kill him 70-odd times but since we can't do that, a rifle round through the head is as close as is possible and would have the added benefit of no-platforming him very effectively, rather than the ridiculous situation in Norway, where he still gets to spout his shit from prison or a courtroom.
8ball
1,200 lights
Re: your first point - prison is not “regular society”, so your argument could just be taken as one for full-life tariffs.
Regarding proportionality - different systems of law differ greatly in this principle, but how about torturing him regularly for the rest of his days? Surely even that would not compare with the suffering of the families of the deceased, and the pain and terror caused on the day.
What manner and regime of torture would you prefer.
Regarding de-platforming - “spouting his shit from prison” is not permitted as far as I am aware (and certainly shouldn’t be), but how he chooses to incriminate himself in the courtroom is up to him.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
As I said before, if a whole life sentence was absolutely guaranteed to keep the perp incarcerated until death, much of my support for CP would go. But, governments and Home Secretaries change. No such guarantee is possible.
Proportionality can only go so far. I'm not advocating torturing anyone, including torturers, or raping rapists, but I do believe that for some crimes the correct response is the ultimate one.
8ball
1,200 lights
Ok, so CP is kind of an insurance policy against politicians releasing prisoners who you consider to have permanently forfeited their right to live in general society.
This doesn’t show much faith in a system that you are trusting with a mandate to kill in cold blood.
It also means that you see the killing as less of an evil than that of releasing reformed prisoners after a lengthy stretch. Which isn’t very easy to argue with, but I think is worth framing in these terms since it values retribution above any possibility of reconciliation or restoration.
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Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
No. Some people's crimes are so atrocious that I believe they deserve to die for committing them, because that is as close as is feasible to a proportionate response. Executing such people negates the question of them ever being released. As a bonus, there may be some deterrent effect as well.
8ball
1,200 lights
Deterrence aside (being a “maybe” issue, let’s say), there are plenty of other posters who have voiced that someone may indeed deserve to die for their crimes (personally, I waver a little on this one), yet still disagree with capital punishment. So I think there are some gaps here.
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