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Amanda Knox Is Innocent

Miss Caphat said:
maybe they just didn't think to say it. I have no idea. it seems like whatever happened during those interrogations produced a lot of very odd statements. if they had only thought to record them, these questions might be a lot easier to answer.

The thing is, if you have a murder victim covered with dna of one other person who also just had sex w/ the victim, with a very rocky history, who seemed to be spiralling out of control and who had just been cast out by his wealthy adoptive family, had nothing to lose, also went rifling through the victim's things leaving bloody handprints, stole money, left, ran off to Germany w/ his blood-stained clothes,

you better have some evidence way better than "these two other people played some mp3s in the night and didn't say they had omg!" for why anyone else would have been involved. especially if those two are naive college students with their lives ahead of them and no motive.
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You know there is much, much more evidence than that so why do you feel the need to misrepresent my argument? Can you admit that there is a good deal of evidence against them and that they would have questions to answer in any jurisdiction?

The nature and number of the victim's wounds make it impossible that she was killed by one person acting alone. Do you think Rudy Guede staged the break in and carried out the clean-up?

Can you provide a link to the evidence about stolen money?
 
Miss Caphat said:
maybe they just didn't think to say it. I have no idea. it seems like whatever happened during those interrogations produced a lot of very odd statements. if they had only thought to record them, these questions might be a lot easier to answer.

The thing is, if you have a murder victim covered with dna of one other person who also just had sex w/ the victim, with a very rocky history, who seemed to be spiralling out of control and who had just been cast out by his wealthy adoptive family, had nothing to lose, also went rifling through the victim's things leaving bloody handprints, stole money, left, ran off to Germany w/ his blood-stained clothes,

you better have some evidence way better than "these two other people played some mp3s in the night and didn't say they had omg!" for why anyone else would have been involved. especially if those two are naive college students with their lives ahead of them and no motive.
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I have been reading your posts on this thread because I consider you to be very levelled headed and consistant as a poster....one thing that gets me is that....Had I been at the home or and with my newish BF I would not think to change that story at all. The idea that two people relatively newly together spent a night at home together with their phones off is the most believable thing ever....which is why their changing statements is weird.

One could argue that their statement changes were due to manipulative questioning techniques, sure... There are though things that certainly feel odd about this and whether it's DNA evidence, changing stories and the type of injuries that MK had which are consistant with there being more than one person involved...I don't believe we have the full picture of what happened at all.


Kicking and screaming...Knox will not return to Italy any other way...regardless of whether she was involved in this or not...I imagine Meredith would have wanted to kick and scream for her life too.
 
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Reading that wiki for the past hour or so the evidence against them at least knowing a lot more than they let on seems pretty damning. You obviously can't go on behaviour alone but evidence mixed with, frankly, ludicrous explanations can be used to build a case can't they?

I mean take for example luminol that shows Knox's foot prints in Kercher's blood going from Kercher's door to Knox's, a bloody foot print of Knox's in Kercher's blood in Knox's bedroom. How did Knox explain this? She said 'when she discovered that all the towels in the bathroom were missing she decided to use the bloody bathmat' as a sliding surface to return to her room. She claims that she remembers her foot sliding off the bathmat and that could be how she got Meredith's blood mixed with her DNA.' Wtf? Really?

So she thought 'oh, there's bloody footprints leading from my housemate's room to the front door. Let's go jump in the shower. Oh I'd better avoid those foot prints, let's slide back down the hall way on this blood stained bath mat so I avoid them. Ooops, my foot slipped off and into a bloody foot print. Not to worry I'll just wash it off and then put this blood stained bath mat where I found it' - seems legit.
 
The Pale King said:
I do take your point, but I think the statement 'people tend to react uniquely to stressors' is too strong. And the behaviour I was focussing on was their repeated lying to the police. I don't think making up stories to the police can really be counted as a reaction to stress, can it? Particularly when some of these lies are maintained or revised after the immediate stressor has passed.
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What I mean is that the individual combination of reactions tend to be unique. You can't really nail down how someone is going to react.
BTW, "making up stories" is a perfectly plausible reaction - it's what a lot of children do, after all.

As an aside, to me it'd be interesting to know a lot more about Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's upbringing, and how they reacted to childhood events
 
Miss Caphat said:
maybe they just didn't think to say it. I have no idea. it seems like whatever happened during those interrogations produced a lot of very odd statements. if they had only thought to record them, these questions might be a lot easier to answer.

The thing is, if you have a murder victim covered with dna of one other person who also just had sex w/ the victim, with a very rocky history, who seemed to be spiralling out of control and who had just been cast out by his wealthy adoptive family, had nothing to lose, also went rifling through the victim's things leaving bloody handprints, stole money, left, ran off to Germany w/ his blood-stained clothes,

you better have some evidence way better than "these two other people played some mp3s in the night and didn't say they had omg!" for why anyone else would have been involved. especially if those two are naive college students with their lives ahead of them and no motive.
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Interesting how many assumptions you make based on your interpretation of events. :)
 
this case reminds me so much of My Cousin Vinny. They just need their own Pesci and Tomei team to come in and reveal the utter stupidity of the evidence against them.
 
Miss Caphat said:
maybe they just didn't think to say it. I have no idea. it seems like whatever happened during those interrogations produced a lot of very odd statements. if they had only thought to record them, these questions might be a lot easier to answer.

The thing is, if you have a murder victim covered with dna of one other person who also just had sex w/ the victim, with a very rocky history, who seemed to be spiralling out of control and who had just been cast out by his wealthy adoptive family, had nothing to lose, also went rifling through the victim's things leaving bloody handprints, stole money, left, ran off to Germany w/ his blood-stained clothes,

you better have some evidence way better than "these two other people played some mp3s in the night and didn't say they had omg!" for why anyone else would have been involved. especially if those two are naive college students with their lives ahead of them and no motive.
Click to expand...

That's not evidence though is it? Actually look at the evidence yourself. The point is it's the blatant bullshit in everything the pair of them has said coupled with feats that defy the laws of physics, like four blood drops landing exactly on top of each other at right angles that arise suspicion. I mean you'd have to be a total moron to except the sliding bath mat story and that was said in court, not under interrogation.

Edit: The DNA of Guede's found in Kercher's vagina was not his sperm.
 
Doctor Carrot said:
Reading that wiki for the past hour or so the evidence against them at least knowing a lot more than they let on seems pretty damning. You obviously can't go on behaviour alone but evidence mixed with, frankly, ludicrous explanations can be used to build a case can't they?

I mean take for example luminol that shows Knox's foot prints in Kercher's blood going from Kercher's door to Knox's, a bloody foot print of Knox's in Kercher's blood in Knox's bedroom. How did Knox explain this? She said 'when she discovered that all the towels in the bathroom were missing she decided to use the bloody bathmat' as a sliding surface to return to her room. She claims that she remembers her foot sliding off the bathmat and that could be how she got Meredith's blood mixed with her DNA.' Wtf? Really?

So she thought 'oh, there's bloody footprints leading from my housemate's room to the front door. Let's go jump in the shower. Oh I'd better avoid those foot prints, let's slide back down the hall way on this blood stained bath mat so I avoid them. Ooops, my foot slipped off and into a bloody foot print. Not to worry I'll just wash it off and then put this blood stained bath mat where I found it' - seems legit.
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To be scrupulously fair, Luminol will also react to quite a few cleaning products, although one would need to ask oneself why a cleaning product would have to be used in a footprint-shaped pattern, IYSWIM. :)
 
Doctor Carrot said:
That's not evidence though is it? Actually look at the evidence yourself. The point is it's the blatant bullshit in everything the pair of them has said coupled with feats that defy the laws of physics, like four blood drops landing exactly on top of each other at right angles that arise suspicion. I mean you'd have to be a total moron to except the sliding bath mat story and that was said in court, not under interrogation.
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Yes the sliding bathmat story is utterly preposterous. If you look at a photo of her from the day of the discovery of the body, her hair is dirty and obviously unwashed.
 
Doctor Carrot said:
That's not evidence though is it? Actually look at the evidence yourself. The point is it's the
.blatant bullshit in everything the pair of them has said coupled with feats that defy the laws of physics, like four blood drops landing exactly on top of each other at right angles that arise suspicion. I mean you'd have to be a total moron to except the sliding bath mat story and that was said in court, not under interrogation.

Edit: The DNA of Guede's found in Kercher's vagina was not his sperm.
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To put it crudely, it could have been a finger...which is consistant with his story
 
ViolentPanda said:
To be scrupulously fair, Luminol will also react to quite a few cleaning products, although one would need to ask oneself why a cleaning product would have to be used in a footprint-shaped pattern, IYSWIM. :)
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Yeah I agree but apparently reaction with cleaning products only happens so long. The murder occurred November 1st but luminol wasn't applied until 18th December, meaning it would no longer react to said cleaning products. Apparently it also reacts to onions, carrots and turnips. To quote that wiki 'The defense is free to argue that Knox and Sollecito were in the habit of applying turnip pulp to their feet but no one is required to believe that claim and, importantly, they did not testify in court regarding any such practice.'
 
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ViolentPanda said:
What I mean is that the individual combination of reactions tend to be unique. You can't really nail down how someone is going to react.
BTW, "making up stories" is a perfectly plausible reaction - it's what a lot of children do, after all.

As an aside, to me it'd be interesting to know a lot more about Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito's upbringing, and how they reacted to childhood events
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The defence have portrayed Knox as an almost uniquely unworldly naïf prone to flights of fantasy. Maybe that is the case. Or maybe her family and friends are well practiced at making excuses for her behaviour.

As to the uniqueness or otherwise of reactions to trauma, I agree that you can't predict how someone will react to things, although I would say there is a repertoire of likely behaviours, some of which will manifest depending on circumstances, culture etc. I agree with you that sticking to hard evidence is the best thing though. Spontaneously 'making up stories' might be explicable as a reaction to trauma, but continual deception looks like something else to me.
 
The Pale King said:
The defence have portrayed Knox as an almost uniquely unworldly naïf prone to flights of fantasy. Maybe that is the case. Or maybe her family and friends are well practiced at making excuses for her behaviour.
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hence I'd like to know a lot more about their upbringing. It could give a window onto why their reactions were as they were or, conversely, show that their reactions weren't consistent with their usual stress reactions.

As to the uniqueness or otherwise of reactions to trauma, I agree that you can't predict how someone will react to things, although I would say there is a repertoire of likely behaviours, some of which will manifest depending on circumstances, culture etc. I agree with you that sticking to hard evidence is the best thing though. Spontaneously 'making up stories' might be explicable as a reaction to trauma, but continual deception looks like something else to me.
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Sure. I see your point with regard to continual deception, but with regard to expected reactions to committing. witnessing or being the victim of violent crimes, what I'd say is that peri-traumatic stress and disassociation are a big factor in "scrambling" what we might believe to be normal reactions, and fear "inspired by that stress/trauma could be a motivation for continuing any falsehood/story way past the point where it still holds any utility.
I've long since gone beyond expecting rational, reasonable or reasoned behaviour, when I study a case!
 
[/quote]
Doctor Carrot said:
Reading that wiki for the past hour or so the evidence against them at least knowing a lot more than they let on seems pretty damning. You obviously can't go on behaviour alone but evidence mixed with, frankly, ludicrous explanations can be used to build a case can't they?

I mean take for example luminol that shows Knox's foot prints in Kercher's blood going from Kercher's door to Knox's, a bloody foot print of Knox's in Kercher's blood in Knox's bedroom. How did Knox explain this? She said 'when she discovered that all the towels in the bathroom were missing she decided to use the bloody bathmat' as a sliding surface to return to her room. She claims that she remembers her foot sliding off the bathmat and that could be how she got Meredith's blood mixed with her DNA.' Wtf? Really?

So she thought 'oh, there's bloody footprints leading from my housemate's room to the front door. Let's go jump in the shower. Oh I'd better avoid those foot prints, let's slide back down the hall way on this blood stained bath mat so I avoid them. Ooops, my foot slipped off and into a bloody foot print. Not to worry I'll just wash it off and then put this blood stained bath mat where I found it' - seems legit.
Click to expand...
Doctor Carrot said:
Reading that wiki for the past hour or so the evidence against them at least knowing a lot more than they let on seems pretty damning. You obviously can't go on behaviour alone but evidence mixed with, frankly, ludicrous explanations can be used to build a case can't they?

I mean take for example luminol that shows Knox's foot prints in Kercher's blood going from Kercher's door to Knox's, a bloody foot print of Knox's in Kercher's blood in Knox's bedroom. How did Knox explain this? She said 'when she discovered that all the towels in the bathroom were missing she decided to use the bloody bathmat' as a sliding surface to return to her room. She claims that she remembers her foot sliding off the bathmat and that could be how she got Meredith's blood mixed with her DNA.' Wtf? Really?

So she thought 'oh, there's bloody footprints leading from my housemate's room to the front door. Let's go jump in the shower. Oh I'd better avoid those foot prints, let's slide back down the hall way on this blood stained bath mat so I avoid them. Ooops, my foot slipped off and into a bloody foot print. Not to worry I'll just wash it off and then put this blood stained bath mat where I found it' - seems legit.
Click to expand...
 
Doctor Carrot said:
Pretty damn crass for a judge to comment but this is interesting. He says a motive was established and that will become clear when the reasoning for the verdict is given.
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Yet another motive, a new by the prosecutor in the latest appeal, followed by a rival one from the judge is just what the Italian judiciary need to restore a sense of gravitas.
 
Rutita1 said:
I have been reading your posts on this thread because I consider you to be very levelled headed and consistant as a poster....one thing that gets me is that....Had I been at the home or and with my newish BF I would not think to change that story at all. The idea that two people relatively newly together spent a night at home together with their phones off is the most believable thing ever....which is why their changing statements is weird.

One could argue that their statement changes were due to manipulative questioning techniques, sure... There are though things that certainly feel odd about this and whether it's DNA evidence, changing stories and the type of injuries that MK had which are consistant with there being more than one person involved...I don't believe we have the full picture of what happened at all.


Kicking and screaming...Knox will not return to Italy any other way...regardless of whether she was involved in this or not...I imagine Meredith would have wanted to kick and scream for her life too.
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thanks, Rutita :)

all I can say is, and this will probably invoke lots of flaming, that in all the stories of the investigations of actual murders I've seen, there are often a series of suspects, all of whom police have good reason to suspect might have had something to do with the crime. People do all sorts of things that seem very suspicious, and there is often what seems like good evidence against them.
So the case against them starts being made, piece by piece, until it comes to a dead end or starts to unravel. This process is repeated until they come up with the person who actually did it, or it ends with all dead ends, which may or may not be picked up again to investigate further.
I think a lot of people maybe aren't aware of how often that happens (that there are suspects with what seems like good evidence against them that turns out to be insignificant). They think that if someone is innocent, there's no way there could be any evidence against them.
To me, Guede is the ultimate dead end/ unravelling. His actions, the evidence against him, and the motive.

Unless there is some new scenario that hasn't been made public, factoring in the evidence implicating Guede, the only scenario so far that makes any sense would be the "sex games gone wrong" one. Which besides there being no real evidence for, is not a scenario Guede ever mentioned in any of his public or private statements about the night.

If either of the scenarios he presented were true, in which he was in the bathroom while the killers came in and held Meredith down and killed her,

A) why was she undressed?

B) His account makes it sound like the murder happened in a very short time. Does that match w/ the autopsy at all? the autopsy report seems more like a drawn-out event with lots of different positions and types of violence against her.

C) why did Guede write "AF" on the wall in Meredith's blood? Seems eerily like something I've seen in other cases where a killer tries to implicate someone else by writing their name or initials at a crime scene (I've heard of it being done in blood too). Was there ever an investigation of someone with those initials Guede may have been trying to incriminate?

D) in any of these cases, he would have been worried about being implicated in her murder. Why on earth then would he go rifling through her purse with his bloody hands and (presumably) stealing things?

and on and on.
 
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Rutita1 said:
No mention of any other person there though and it appears that he couldn't have done it alone because of her injuries. :confused:
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well, wait a minute though. apparently 7 experts looked at the autopsy report; only one claimed that it had to have been done by more than one person. Guess which expert's testimony was used during the trial.
I also just read that actually the autopsy was left far too long after the time of death. I did think it was strange that they have such a huge window of time for possible time of death.
 
Rutita1 said:
No mention of any other person there though and it appears that he couldn't have done it alone because of her injuries. :confused:
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There is no evidence of anyone else leaving the house in the bloody way Guede did. And anyone involved in the murder in the way the prosecution alleges it happened would, would like Guede be covered in blood and blood spray.
Critically, there was no trace of Meredith on either Sollecitto or Knox, and no trace of Meredith on either them or in their rooms/flats.

The DNA on the bra clasp discovered 47 days after the murder and handled with dirty gloves has to be discounted as significant as it would be impossible to leave a tiny amount of DNA on just one tiny item considering the allegation that four people were involved in a violent and protracted struggle that ended in bloody murder.
Also when the defence asked for the clasp re-examined it proved impossible as it had rusted due to being stored improperly.
 
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