Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Nigel Irritable]

God, she weasels exactly like articul8

But articul8 doesn't finish by abasing himself.

 

[butchersapron]

But articul8 doesn't finish by abasing himself.

True, he does start by debasing himself though. And in that he is sincere at least - whereas laurie has a fakeness to her abasement. And her real anger at getting caught out is not being hidden that well.

 

[sihhi]

That was the moment this thread has been building towards for years now. There's a sort of sadistic pleasure in watching high profile intersectionalistas flagellate themselves. Its her acceptance that she was wrong to have an opinion and that she has no right to hurt feelings that brings the whole exchange towards intersectionalista apotheosis.

What LP has done is not 'flagellation' - writing 1 sentence saying 'I was wrong, sorry' on a computer. It's pseudo-self-criticism.
What exactly has been learnt? Goodness knows.

It's all weak in the first place anyway - tweeting to Rod Liddle that he's a racist arsehole - it's not harmful as LP suggested but it's not anything meaningful that needs to be defended, the fact that LP continued this exchange is proof that a. it's not really an issue and b. it's one where LP could score even by 'losing'/being silly.

 

[SpineyNorman]

This taking the piss?

"Ow. My feelings right now."

I read it as 'Fuck feelings'

If feelings don't matter what exactly was the reason LP left this thread?

Especially as this thread could be interpreted as a call out for Laurie to check her class privilege.

Why is class exempt from this kind of stuff by the way? Why can Laurie trample on our oppression but not that of POCs (btw - coloured was offensive when I was a kid, when did it become PC again?)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

What LP has done is not 'flagellation' - writing 1 sentence saying 'I was wrong, sorry' on a computer. It's pseudo-self-criticism.

It's exactly self-flagellation, an empty ritual to purify yourself so that you can take your place once more amongst the "ally" elect. Now, that's not to say that there's not a perfunctory element to her self-criticism, nor that there's no resentment underneath it, but those are the rules of the game these people play. She made a comment connected to racism, a "PoC" challenged her right to speak, therefore she had to apologise and agree that she has no right to an opinion.

 

[The Pale King]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
I feel that I've learned something from what you said, anyway, @AvaVidal, and I've apologised publicly because of it

Be 'umble Urie! Ever so 'umble!

 

[J Ed]

Laurie is constantly involved in spats. I know Owen Jones gets lots of stick here too but, lordy, I think there's a world of difference between them. Laurie is a poor journalist and a worse activist.

Is it part of the brand?

 

[sihhi]

Why did LP respond publicly to

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/339390447376015360

AvaVidal ‏@AvaVidal 1 sa
I'd appreciate you not telling us how to react to racist comments @PennyRed. Our communities are under attack & ignoring it won't stop that.

LP didn't need to respond, there was no case of anything going wrong, could have been left alone like hundreds of other mentions.
It's an odd statement to make by this person, assuming that PennyRed's attentive audience are somehow a sizeably immigrant one. I dunno it all reads really odd.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Why can Laurie trample on our oppression but not that of POCs (btw - coloured was offensive when I was a kid, when did it become PC again?)

Fifteen minutes ago when it started oozing across the Atlantic, from the American campuses through tumblr and twitter. I suspect that you could still cause some offence were you to start randomly using the term in some non-twitter social circles in Britain.

 

[J Ed]

Fifteen minutes ago when it started oozing across the Atlantic, from the American campuses through tumblr and twitter. I suspect that you could still cause some offence were you to start randomly using the term in some non-twitter social circles in Britain.

Then it'd be a matter for the JOCs... (Laurie coined that term lol)

 

[Nigel Irritable]

LP didn't need to respond, there was no case of anything going wrong, could have been left alone like hundreds of other mentions.

She had her privilege checked by a slightly known comedian and PoC. She had no choice, given the circles in which she moves.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Then it'd be a matter for the JOCs... (Laurie coined that term lol)

Should I even ask what the J stands for (journalists by any chance?)

 

[DotCommunist]

judges?

 

[SpineyNorman]

She had her privilege checked by a slightly known comedian and PoC. She had no choice, given the circles in which she moves.

Yep - not replying means you're ignoring them and that's trampling on their oppression

 

[J Ed]

Should I even ask what the J stands for (journalists by any chance?)

Yeah, she coined it when she was getting 'called out' actually on a class basis by a black American woman writer.

 

[sihhi]

She had her privilege checked by a slightly known comedian and PoC. She had no choice, given the circles in which she moves.

But there were other (also immigrant) tweeters including Diane Abbott who basically agreed and said along the lines of 'So true. Rod Liddle really is a graspy knob. LOL'

 

[SpineyNorman]

Yeah, she coined it when she was getting 'called out' actually on a class basis by a black American woman writer.

I was gonna suggest we coined the term proles of colour (or given its roots should that be color?) but I realised that's POC too so our united front against classist-racism could become a popular front against racism that tramples on the oppression of working class POCs (with the p standing for people again this time - I think - this is fucking confusing).

What's wrong with black anyway? The black people I am close to certainly prefer that term, in fact the black person I know best (my ex) is proud to call herself black.

It's all just really fucking weird and confusing.

 

[SpineyNorman]

But there were other (also immigrant) tweeters including Diane Abbott who basically agreed and said along the lines of 'So true. Rod Liddle really is a graspy knob. LOL'

What happens when two people who share an oppression (let's say they're both POCs) disagree on something to do with that oppression. Do they have a proper argument like everyone else would or do they have an intersectional priv-off where they work out who has the most secondary oppressions (kind of like goal difference or away goals or something)?

 

[JimW]

Takes me back to some of the classic struggle sessions of the Anti-Spiritual Pollution Campaign. Good times, good times.

 

[sihhi]

What happens when two people who share an oppression (let's say they're both POCs) disagree on something to do with that oppression. Do they have a proper argument like everyone else would or do they have an intersectional priv-off where they work out who has the most secondary oppressions (kind of like goal difference or away goals or something)?

I dunno, all I'm saying is I find it very odd that LP essentially wanted to be called out publicly over this point but couldn't share a link to this thread for people to see there was no discussion of her bedroom in a sexist way but the lies about 'The Hovel' etc.

 

[Bakunin]

If you get your privilege checked by a POC it's ok. When we did it, not so cool - just jealousy

Is it because we is white?

 

[J Ed]

I was gonna suggest we coined the term proles of colour (or given its roots should that be color?) but I realised that's POC too so our united front against classist-racism could become a popular front against racism that tramples on the oppression of working class POCs (with the p standing for people again this time - I think - this is fucking confusing).

What's wrong with black anyway? The black people I am close to certainly prefer that term, in fact the black person I know best (my ex) is proud to call herself black.

It's all just really fucking weird and confusing.

Can you imagine chatting with someone that's black or Asian in the pub and just casually using the term 'people of colour'? It'd be like something out of Peep Show or the In Betweeners...

 

[sihhi]

Takes me back to some of the classic struggle sessions of the Anti-Spiritual Pollution Campaign. Good times, good times.

Weren't struggle sessions for the GPCR?

 

[JimW]

Weren't struggle sessions for the GPCR?

I meant the exercise of ritual self-criticism and self-abasement before the Party line, so you're right, struggle session probably not the English word. Though I think they distinguished between mass sessions with popular participation and small group stuff within the work unit/ Party cell etc. and both were called struggle. Now I will have to check
ETA: My extensive historical research of googling around a bit now shows that struggle sessions (批评斗争) predate the GPCR at least as far back as the Anti-Rightist campaign and did sometimes take place in small meetings (批斗小组会).

 

[Nigel Irritable]

But there were other (also immigrant) tweeters including Diane Abbott who basically agreed and said along the lines of 'So true. Rod Liddle really is a graspy knob. LOL'

Doesn't matter. The other "POCs" can agree, but that doesn't give Penny a way out. Because she'd still have to argue back. Which would be a further demonstration of privilege.

 

[sihhi]

Doesn't matter. The other "POCs" can agree, but that doesn't give Penny a way out. Because she'd still have to argue back. Which would be a further demonstration of privilege.

POCs - sounds like you're saying pox surely plural is POC.

Are 'POC' who grow up in essentially white households still 'POC'.
I'm not making this one up: but a white lesbian couple white heritage now have a twelve month old Iraqi Kurdish-white mixed heritage baby they have adopted. Does the 'whiteness' of the parents and culture contacts life opportunities matter trump over the biological origins?
If you can only challenge disablism or racism from POC people as a POC person, then won't it involve an incorrect form of self-categorisation, categorise as X in order to still have a voice?

 

[love detective]

a white lesbian couple white now have a....

it'll be all white on the night

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'm not making this one up: but a white lesbian couple white heritage now have a twelve month old Iraqi Kurdish-white mixed heritage baby they have adopted. Does the 'whiteness' of the parents and culture contacts life opportunities matter trump over the biological origins?

For the purposes of interactions with privilege politics types / intersectionalistas it will centrally depend on how the baby "self-identifies".

(You can generally answer most questions about this outlook by asking yourself what the most solipsistic and personal experience/identity based response would be.)

 

[sihhi]

it'll be all white on the night

Won't the rigidity of the oppression rules into create safer spaces end up creating this kind of gaming the system? - males who otherwise seek female partners but like the look of a male celebrity or two self-identify themselves as bisexual, people who have a mild neuralgia self-identify as part of disabled people caucus, women who appear white on appearance who have christian type names who are not victims of direct racism and have families resident a generation, born with citizen status self-identify as WOC because of an Indian grandparent. The more this stuff takes off, the more the pressures will increase.

 

[love detective]

it was a joke sihhi - your original post (before you edited) said:-

a white lesbian couple white now have a twelve month old Iraqi Kurdish-white mixed heritage baby they have adopted