Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[frogwoman]

I find this whole hierarchy of oppression really offensive as well sihhi, i know this is more what you were going on about on the other thread but i do find it really offensive. Like the idea for example that the sort of sexual harassment women face if they are white is only 1/5 what an immigrant has to face for example. It's such bullshit, you can't say that sort of thing, any sort of sexual harassment or racist abuse etc is completely unacceptable.

 

[treelover]

I think Lisa Ansell used to post quite hysterical pieces on Indymedia and certainly CIF.

 

[cesare]

I think Lisa Ansell used to post quite hysterical pieces on Indymedia and certainly CIF.

Someone hasn't sent me the memo on reclaiming hysterical.

 

[sihhi]

I find this whole hierarchy of oppression really offensive as well sihhi, i know this is more what you were going on about on the other thread but i do find it really offensive. Like the idea for example that the sort of sexual harassment women face if they are white is only 1/5 what an immigrant has to face for example. It's such bullshit, you can't say that sort of thing, any sort of sexual harassment or racist abuse etc is completely unacceptable.

It might be. But go cry to white Santa Claus, etc.
The crude version is:
White women face a less intense, more straight-forward sexism compared to black women - no one knows the factor - I made the 'fives time more' up. But they can't really do any extrapolation, all they can do on matters of black men being sexist to black women, is keep silent. Any intervention helps an overwhelmingly white supremacist. If the Anti Racism Dog barked at you you'd understand. Sorry not sorry etc.

Listen to what Malcolm Harris said:

"What could a dog – an anti-racist one, at that – do to deserve it? @Anti_Racism_Dog had one real function: to bark at racist speech on Twitter.
The account responded to tweets it deemed racist with the simple response ‘bark bark bark!’ Sometimes it would send wags to supporters but that was pretty much it.
The account would respond mostly to what the sociologist Eduardo Bonilla-Silva would call ‘colour-blind racism’, that is, racisms that are generally right-libertarian in orientation and justified through appeals to supposedly objective discourses like science and statistics. It’s a notoriously insidious white-supremacist ideology, a virulent strain evolved specifically to resist anti-racist language. Colour-blind racism defends itself by appeals to neutrality and meritocracy, accusing its adversaries of being ‘the real racists’. Although its moves are predictable, they’re hard to combat rhetorically since they’re able to ingest the conventional opposition scripts. Colour-blind racists feed on good-faith debate, and engaging with them, especially online, is almost always futile. But when they’re barked at by a dog, one whose only quality is anti-racism, they flip the fuck out. ...
@Anti_Racism_Dog, by fully assuming the persona of an animal, was invulnerable to counter-attack. You can’t explain yourself to a dog and you look like an idiot trying. The only way to win is not to play but this is the colour-blind racist’s Achilles Heel: they’re compelled to defend themselves against accusations of racism. It’s the anti-racist argument that gives them content; theirs is an ideology that’s in large part a list of counter-arguments. After all, white-supremacists are already winning – their task now is to keep the same racist structures in place while making plausibly colour-blind arguments against dismantling them. @Anti_Racism_Dog was empty of anything other than accusation and so left its targets sputtering."

 

[frogwoman]

I find that ridiculous lol, what about polish women, or gypsies or travellers. Surely in some areas of the UK a Polish or Romanian woman, especially if she is working class, might expect to face more open racism than a black woman whose family who has been there for generations?

 

[frogwoman]

And as if white people never have to put up with any racism, I've had to deal with some quite bad racism especially when I was younger, and I'm white. Imagine how things were for for example, Serbs or Kosovar Albanians coming to this country as asylum seekers, who were mostly white, and the sort of abuse people can get if they dont speak english very well, even as a white person, especially working in a low paid job where people treat you like shit. I know you're not saying that btw, but the thought of it does make me a bit angry. Where does all this fit into their bullshit theories?

 

[Delroy Booth]

And as if white people never have to put up with any racism, I've had to deal with some quite bad racism especially when I was younger, and I'm white. Imagine how things were for for example, Serbs or Kosovar Albanians coming to this country as asylum seekers, who were mostly white, and the sort of abuse people can get if they dont speak english very well, even as a white person, especially working in a low paid job where people treat you like shit. I know you're not saying that btw, but the thought of it does make me a bit angry. Where does all this fit into their bullshit theories?

Northern Ireland?

 

[sihhi]

I find that ridiculous lol, what about polish women, or gypsies or travellers. Surely in some areas of the UK a Polish or Romanian woman, especially if she is working class, might expect to face more open racism than a black woman whose family who has been there for generations?

This is like a flood of white tears etc. Black people are just structurally oppressed in Britain, it's the way it is. Their wealth was stolen from them by slavery and Britain has made no reparation for the descendents of this act of oppression.
Hence, your finding some Nigerians who arrived in the fifties living in Lewisham having parties at the weekend surrounded by a mixed community who don't mind the BEN music piping away is irrelevant. White people may experience racism from other white people yes, but only white people structurally inflict/have inflicted racism on others, moulding their psychological mindsets. You can't escape it by doing a Racism Awareness Training Course - what is this - the 1980s? All of us or none of us! End all oppressions not just classism. We want the whole damn bakery!

Frogwoman - at this point - you are doing "‘colour-blind racism’" by saying colour shouldn't matter in how and who gets listened to in general, remember that "it’s a notoriously insidious white-supremacist ideology, a virulent strain evolved specifically to resist anti-racist language."

 

[frogwoman]

fuck this shit is disturbing. what about my mates who were refused to be served in a pub because they "looked like pikeys"? and pubs around hemel etc that always refuse to serve people they think are travellers!

i know youre not saying this sihhi but come on, i cant believe people actually argue this in the 21st century, its insane

would people actually call someone a racist for pointing out this stuff?

 

[sihhi]

I know you're not saying that btw, but the thought of it does make me a bit angry. Where does all this fit into their bullshit theories?

To be honest it fits in very badly. Those of the world-wide working-class who are from Eurasia's Third World - from South-Eastern Europe, the Balkans, from Central Asia,
Turks, Kurds, Azeris, Georgians, Armenians, Iranians, Syrians, Lebanese - and who pass as white are a problem - particularly if they've lived in Britain a long time. Many of them are 'below' in poverty levels than the settled Jamaican or Monserratian or Sindh or Gujarati or wherever extended families.

It would force them to accept that these black and Asians have a kind of 'black privilege' - which is, we can at least agree with them on this, a staggeringly dumb concept.

So what gets done is the net is thrown out wider and globally - white people do still oppress black people - whites condescend to black people on Comic Relief (even if it's Lenny Henry doing it? or something), black people are still the threat to white people, white people think of them as the source of problems in the world overpopulation, disease and sorcery and witchcraft and albino murders. Overall however there are fewer murders of albinos in black societies than there are of blacks in western societies, so psychologically we in Britain are under this worldwide media pressure and education that produces racism against blacks. Hence UKIP threatens black people more than it does whites or East Europeans - they are just a stooges to attack black people. Stop denying race! End deaths of black people in custody whether the left wants to campaign on it or not! There is no hierarchy of oppressions! Class doesn't matter unless race matters! Go read bell hooks - she had to change her name to get away from racist assumptions that she was another white professor - do you know how demeaning that it is! No you don't you're a honky. Say honky to yourself with your white breath save black people's time! It's like walking into a party full of people you don't know and them not wanting to change the music on your say so! All of us or none of us!

 

[sihhi]

fuck this shit is disturbing. what about my mates who were refused to be served in a pub because they "looked like pikeys"? and pubs around hemel etc that always refuse to serve people they think are travellers!

LOL! You're doing to make yourself feel better to escape from the feeling of being a shitty person you can go on enjoying your white day in your white town. It's better to accept you're a shitty human being now rather than later. But you don't care with your white blinkers.

Go ahead list it all: white teenagers who wore NUM badges in Nottinghamshire got bundled into police cars if they were in a large group hanging around at night, white residents in Wapping who came to support the pickets had police impound their cars and release them a week later, white Communists who came out onto the streets of Notting Hill in 1958 to defend the black population from attack, white Greenham Common women facing a collective ban on motorway service stations, white Muslim converts who get a swarm of MI5 handlers and police to goad and encourage them to start thinking of plots to blow buildings up then get arrested, white Cypriot young women who went through the virginity examinations by gynaecologists at Heathrow like all the others, white immigrants with headscarves that still face 8 hour interrogations on fully complete visas, pubs and rural campsites or hotel say no travellers wanted. It's all a stream of cat urine compared to 5,000 Africans who die every day due to white intransigence.
Black people are in prisons in white jails, dying in white occupations, suffering white-inflicted hunger and your hand-wringing is for your white friends - who you probably would claim don't see colour - couldn't get into a pub owned by another honky. Do you care about systemic injustice or just lost revenues to the honky economy?

White sweat from hand-wringing - it ain't the same as black slavery.

 

[muscovyduck]

"I was the whitest person in a white town"

 

[sihhi]

This is the guy https://twitter.com/broseph_stalin

behind this:

went to a feminist fightback party last night. expectedly, me and my friends were the only non-white people there. we asked if they could play some hip hop and some honkey feminists said "no, hip hop is misogynistic" to which i responded "whoa, dats kinda racist", they spent the next few hrs angry and glaring at me thinking of how they could kick us out without looking racist. they walked around the party getting comforted from other white people about how they arent racist. later on in the night the two came up to me to "talk this out, since we take these accusations very seriously." (aka: please tell us we're not racist!). i reassured them that in the pecking order of the most racist things in the world what they said was pretty low but that reducing an entire genre of black music as misogynistic is not only completely ignorant but also stems from a particular kind of racism. lets just say they didn't agree, the next thing they asked was: "do you support the east london mosque?" as i stood there with a glass full of gin and very little tonic in my hand i didnt know what they were on about, 'erm what? sure yeah i do i guess why wouldn't i?, but thats a strange question, why do u ask?" to which they got up furiously. we left after that never to return to a feminist fightback party ever again. Facebook: im confused, why did they ask if i supported the east london mosque and why did my answer upset them so much?

oxford phd student labor geography | autonomism | black nationalism | smashin state | eatin rich | liftin | dweebin | livin hackney | reppin chi across da globe

Here you go butchersapron, Chris Harman understood autonomism wrong these guys are doing it right.

I don't even get the story why are men going to Feminist Fightback parties - the middle-class lot want to crowd in everywhere. LOL.
Stay to drink gin at people you've already observed as racist/(or should that be insufficiently intersectional) and then spread the news on your twitter to 1,277 followers? It just all sounds so dumb it's unreal.

 

[frogwoman]

what a prick.

 

[Idris2002]

Have these people given any indication of how they see the endgame? By "endgame" I mean what happens when they get from point A to point B, point B being the situation when the racism they identify as the key problem is overcome. Or do they have no conception of such an endgame?

 

[J Ed]

Have these people given any indication of how they see the endgame? By "endgame" I mean what happens when they get from point A to point B, point B being the situation when the racism they identify as the key problem is overcome. Or do they have no conception of such an endgame?

Surely an endgame would defeat the purpose?

 

[Idris2002]

Surely an endgame would defeat the purpose?

You mean. . . they're not actually interested in ending the social evils they affect to condemn?

 

[sihhi]

Surely an endgame would defeat the purpose?

Here we go again - white doubt over non-white intentions. White people get on Oprah when they explain why racism is bad, when black people do the same they get people rolling their eyes - it makes them feel uncomfortable. Death to honkies and whites. First you kill the honkies, then you eat dinner in the same room with them. Saying anti-racists just want to keep racism alive to milk it for their own ends is what the BNP does. For real, you are a racist. Repeat after your white self: 'I am a racist'. Dig it! The red class struggle front is becoming every day like the National Front. Don't tell people who've had their music denied how to deal with the racism they experience every waking minute of their lives. Do you even know what a black minute feels like? The hell you do. White people want to pretend they are ending racism and explain that their traveller friends receive racism so they are racism victims too. There's no god-damned problem with exaggerating feelings, honky. There's no possible way in which backlash Tory (or Labour) sentiments could be whipped to the detriment of immigrants. Immigrants already face hell. If foreign criminals get deported in your so-called backlash we know what it feels like anyway. White British society is a large prison for non-whites, you dig? That's why foreign non-white people from the U.S. do PhDs in Oxford University after being elected student union top officials in mostly white student British universities.

 

[Idris2002]

"Dig it"? How old are you?

 

[J Ed]

I'm sorry PoCs and JoCs

 

[sihhi]

In all seriousness, J Ed can you explain how this stuff is improving the university anti-cuts struggle - can we expect a black students' exam boycott to squeeze the system cutting back on FE that "hits minorities disproportionately" etc?

by Roshni Joshi, NCAFC National Committee and NUS National Executive Council
As a member of all four Liberation campaigns and an advocate of intersectionality, I would say this event hit the mark in terms of providing a safe learning and organising space in which anyone could come together to discuss Liberation and share ideas.
Having attended several NUS/ NCAFC/ student political conferences, I can honestly say that the first NCAFC Liberation Conference was the only one where I have felt intersectionality has truly been prioritised. I ran two sessions on the first day; the Stephen Simpson and Boniface Umale campaign planning workshop and the Hidden Black* identities discussion group. Both workshops had a fair to excellent turnout, especially of members who didn’t define as Black* themselves. The discussions had in the sessions were genuine and interested- it was a very good opportunity for people to air questions and learn about Liberation issues with which they has very little personal investment.
I think the caucus and ally sessions, which allowed self-defining Black*/ LGBT/ Women/ Disabled people to come together and organise and then for our allies to join us in discussion afterwards, were too short for proper discussion to be had; but I think the tone of discussion within them was positive, progressive and constructive, and a solid base for liberation led anticuts campaigning.

What is Black*, is it like #Beautiful?

 

[sihhi]

The black left is winning apparently:

https://twitter.com/Roshkneee/status/334041459789537284

But can you explain this J Ed

http://5pillarsand6colours.wordpress.com/2013/04/22/im-not-a-superhero-and-thats-okay/

Hi, my name is Maryam, I’m a 21 year old undergrad student currently standing to be the next NUS Black Students’ Officer. I’m standing on a platform of intersectionality as I define into all of the Liberation Campaigns (Black, LGBT, women and disabled). The first three are aspects of myself I’m sure pretty much everyone knows of; the latter however, may not be so commonly known.

I define as disabled because of my mental health issues. I have struggled with depression on and off for years in varying degrees, I find stressful situations sometimes more difficult than most and am now realising that the ‘spoon theory’ is something which I increasingly find myself fitting into and indeed using.

How can someone stand on a platform of intersectionality? Surely intersectionality is the means/analysis by which a platform, policy or politics is reached?

 

[cesare]

<snip>


How can someone stand on a platform of intersectionality? Surely intersectionality is the means/analysis by which a platform, policy or politics is reached?

This is the key point on which a perfectly reasonable (in principle) means/analysis/theory gets mutated into identity politics, I think.

 

[butchersapron]

This is the guy https://twitter.com/broseph_stalin

behind this:

oxford phd student labor geography | autonomism | black nationalism | smashin state | eatin rich | liftin | dweebin | livin hackney | reppin chi across da globe

Here you go butchersapron, Chris Harman understood autonomism wrong these guys are doing it right.

I don't even get the story why are men going to Feminist Fightback parties - the middle-class lot want to crowd in everywhere. LOL.
Stay to drink gin at people you've already observed as racist/(or should that be insufficiently intersectional) and then spread the news on your twitter to 1,277 followers? It just all sounds so dumb it's unreal.

Just...wow. Total wow. Lost for words.

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm sorry PoCs and JoCs

how sorry?

 

[agricola]

How can someone stand on a platform of intersectionality?

A platform of intersectionality sounds like some large-scale Lego construct.

 

[J Ed]

I have a few ideas about it but to be totally honest I can't explain any of this stuff, I just don't understand it at all. It's a million miles away from anything I understand and I have been trying to understand it for a while by looking at tumblr blogs, asking people involved and so on.

I just don't get it, I don't think we're supposed to.

 

[DotCommunist]

mounted on the mechano wheels of opression

 

[sihhi]

This report from the NUS Black Section conference has a number of things in it:

Keep UAF in even though the Delta affair still hangs like a millstone around its neck.

North African or very pale black people are not adequately black to share experience of combatting racism or something.

Some kind of demand for a 'don't robustly rebut first time attenders of a conference' rule?

#nusbsc13 – Little democracy, little accountability, no different

I would say that, on average I am a strong woman. This weekend however, I was reduced to tears over my treatment by delegates and observers at the conference. As a first time delegate I will stand up and say that this is not acceptable. A healthy sign of democracy is debate and an ability to criticise the institutions that represent you. When I exercised my right to do this, I was attacked on twitter by a guest speaker! That is not professional. If I had insisted on being in a safe space all weekend, I would have had to stay in the designated room without my phone, how can NUSBSC committee think that is acceptable? However, having talked to others in the movement, I have heard that this is no different from usual.

I attempted to hold a debate on the fact that UAF was included in the motion. This was after Aaron failed to acknowledge that Black female students were being forced to chose between parts of themselves. He insinuated that because Doreen Lawrence was the chair, we do not have any right to criticise the rape apologists within the movement. Sorry, but no! Doreen Lawrence is an amazing woman and has handled the tragedy in her life with dignity and strength and she is truly an inspiration. Ultimately however, I am not going to be forced to choose between anti-racism and sexism, they are both forms of oppression. Intersectionality is so important to those who define into more than one liberation campaign. The vote on whether to discuss my point of order was lost by around 2 votes, it is a shame that Aaron could not vote for it and defend something he obviously feels equally as strong about. I have no doubt that I would have lost the debate -due to the demographics in the room- but I believe I should have been given the opportunity to challenge everything that was being stated as fact, instead of opinion. There is no room for rape apology within the anti-Racism movement.

Most of the dislike for Labour Students was centred around their choice to send out lines during elections, fine. However, when the Black Students Officer themselves posts lines on twitter telling his supporters how to vote, the word ‘hypocrite’ comes to mind. It may seem I am attacking Aaron but ultimately as a fellow Labour comrade, I would have expected better. Let us not forget he is a Labour Councillor and yet I felt marginalised and unaccepted for being Labour.

I was humiliated by steering when attempting to do a Point of Order, even though I had never done one before. They attempted to shut me down without a vote, luckily an impartial NUS staffer was there to support me. It was a flagrant disregard for democracy and a great impression to make to new delegates. I wonder if I hadn’t supported Maryam, would I have been treated the same way?

Now to discuss the role of a guest speaker at this event who has publicly attacked both myself and a fellow delegate for simply criticising his speech. Might I add, he was not even tagged in the original tweet, he was definitely in the mood for a fight. How infantile for a man in his 50′s. Lee Jasper has done a lot for the Black Students movement, there is no doubt about that. However, his speech became very provocative and upset me with his anti-white stance. I do not accept -as someone of dual heritage- that all white people are trying to oppress us. To suggest otherwise is angry and unhelpful. He also frequently used patronising terms such as ‘girls’ when referring to women and ‘the gays’ when referring to the LGBT community. I felt persecuted and bullied by this speaker and it is embarrassing for him that he cannot accept a little criticism from those who said it was awkward for them when he was shouting his aggressive anti-white rhetoric. Let us not forget that the dual heritage population is an ever growing one, we are still victims of racism. I would ask the new NUSBSC committee that he is not invited again. His behaviour has been unacceptable and actively bulling 19 year old and 26 year old students on twitter is shameful behaviour, especially from a man in his 50′s. He should know better. I want to see members of the committee condemning this sort of behaviour as it would not be accepted anywhere else in NUS, it should not be accepted here.

I cannot believe I was a victim of racism at a Black Students conference, the one place you would expect to feel safe. I was not the only one either. Malia was challenged for sharing best practice with fellow Black Students (something which we really need). Apparently being North African excludes her from being able to give advice. This is simply not acceptable, if you are at Black Students Conference you self identify as Black. It is nobody’s right to challenge this and this sort of behaviour is callous and ignorant. Being an ethnic minority means you are open to racist abuse no matter what shade you are, that is a fact. Who could believe that this would even be questioned in an apparent safe space for Black Students.

I will not be told - as I was - that my views were less important because of the colour of my skin. I am half white and I am half black. This weekend has proven what I have previously said which is that no matter where I am I can be the victim of racism from ANYBODY. Black people will challenge me and white people will challenge me. That is why it is important to be inclusive, that is why the anti-white rhetoric was appalling, that rhetoric was condemning half of my family, shame on you. It is not healthy, that is not how change happens. Why do we insist on a sort of campaigning which breeds off hate, why can we not celebrate our diversity, proving that multiculturalism has and does work? This rhetoric is not representative of all Black Students, just a faction in the room.

Let me say one more thing, the Labour Party and especially Labour Students, actively support and respect the autonomy and importance of liberation campaigns. The support I have received as BAME Officer has been amazing. Dianne Abbott is a Black Labour MP, Aaron Kiely is a Black Labour Councillor and a speaker at the conference was a Black Labour Parliamentary Candidate for 2015. This was an NUS event, not an SBL event. I understand that SBL have a very strong presence within the liberation, but the speakers and indeed the speeches need to be more sensitive to other political views. I was not alone in feeling alienated just because of my political affiliation. Am I not still a Black Student? Do I not still deserve the opportunity to speak my mind when I disagree? NUS is a political body, but it represents the views of many factions. This event only catered to one, that is not representative. There are even Black Tory’s out there, yes they are few and far between but ultimately conference should not just be about slating a political party. It should be there to inspire us and give us the tools to make change happen. This was not my experience.

My experience of conference was a negative one and I know I am speaking for others too. I had no safe space this weekend, conference floor wasn’t safe, even the internet was not safe. We should be allowed to criticise speakers without them going into a full frontal attack on first time delegates it is unacceptable behaviour that the NUSBSC leadership should condemn. I am not sure if I will be back next year, this weekend’s experience left me physically and emotionally drained. However, there were a few highlights such as meeting a few amazing people (you know who you are) and the fact that next years conference will be held in Scotland may just persuade me!

 

[J Ed]

I guess I can explain some of the behaviour and views in the way that student politics is structured.

There are no specific paid positions (and certainly no incentive) to pursue class politics within student politics, and as far as I know there are no equivalent positions to the identity politics (or in their parlance 'liberation') groups in any student union in the country. So you will get motion after motion that pushes for things like positive discrimination in elections or an increase in paid elected positions for an identity politics group and so on from people who want to demonstrate that they can get things done and then get elected to a 'liberation' position in the NUS.

There is usually a lot of solidarity between liberation groups in student politics, and there are very real consequences if this gentleman's agreement is broken no matter how ridiculous or poorly thought out whatever is being pushed for is. For example, a motion for a black students officer (another paid elected position) at Sheffield Uni was agreed to in principle by members of the women's committee but several members of the committee suggested that their actual proposal was unconstitutional and needed some amendments before it could pass, the members of the women's committee voicing that opinion were subject to a lot of abuse and accusations of racism. In the end, the motion was found to be unconstitutional by the student press (which was then called right-wing and racist) and they are passing it with amendments again this week. I have no doubt that if the roles were reversed then members of the black students committee would have been subject to the same abuse.

When this threat of accusations of racism and abuse is directed at younger people, many of them still quite unsure of themselves and their politics and often influenced to some extent by identity politics and middle-class white guilt, you can see why this stuff goes unchallenged and gets more and more extreme.