DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
No I haven't. At all. Go back and read.
Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags
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No I haven't. At all. Go back and read.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
..and people would just stick their hand up at the start to "reserve" their speaking spot.
In fact isn't there quite a famous example of a similar procedure being used in this way?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Make them speak by forcing them to, like job based participation
There are no easy answers to this are there, but there are wrong answers i think. The progressive stack is one of them.
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
What? The 'progressive stack' aims to select for members of 'oppressed groups' when people want to speak. If you don't know the people at the meeting how are you going to judge whether they're a member of one of these groups unless you do so by sight?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Yes you have:
cesare said:
So we have you saying 'progressive stacks' don't stack according to appearance.
These 'progressive stacks' that you've seen, if they don't order on appearance what did they order on? If you again answer that it's first come first served then you're not talking about a 'progressive stack', and the confusion is yours.
what about "progressive stack" based on class then, out of interest? A "no privately educated people wittering on" rule would tempt me....
cesare
shady's dreams ♥
I just don't see how the progressive stack would work in practice unless it's a swift judgment call by the facilitator based on appearance.Make them speak by forcing them to, like job based participation
There are no easy answers to this are there, but there are wrong answers i think. The progressive stack is one of them.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
'No liberation without equal representation' is an interesting one.
What should the Oxbridge quota be?
Given that there are 7.24 million between ages of 18-24 in Britain, but only 40,000 in that age bracket who have attended Oxbridge - and over half of Oxbridge is private school.
What is the equal Oxbridge graduate:non-Oxbridge representation ratio?
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
In a 'progressive stack' Laurie Penny, a privately educated upper-middle-class columnist, would come before a white working-class male since she identifies as working-class and poor and goodness knows how many other identity politics subgroups. That's ridiculous.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
I think this sort of thing has been useful as it clearly shows a non-class/cross-class model of organising is the default assumption for many people who think of themselves as radicals, as the only legitimate model, one that just needs a bit of self-finessing, but is essentially benign at worst or helpful at best.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
I'm not talking about the 'progressive' stack. If you read back a lot of peope were getting upset with the hand signals popularly used in consensus based groups and that was getting tied in with this 'progressive' bother.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
Stack. Not progressive stack.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
There really can't be - hence the silence when asked on what other grounds it could work. I can see one other way, people self-certify themselves as bourgeois or something prior to the meeting. On small scale extremely local community type initiatives this sort of thing would be done informally anyway as people know each other, this mess is partly due to the fact that people in these groups don't know each other in that way, don;t really work live and drink/eat together, they have come together as part of an event rather than through everyday life (this might only apply to stuff like occupy).
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
could you not try just punching a few people and see how you get on with that
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
So hand signals (beyond merely raising your hand to notify your wish to speak) good or bad?
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
If you read back and not jumped in I was defending the method of consensus decision making.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
They do more good than harm IME.
They enable people to get a word in edge ways. You can get a feel for what's possible with and wanted by the group.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
This chorus is repeated half a dozen times in one of her songs where she is credited as writer and producer
"Nasty put some clothes on, I told you /
Don't walk out your house without no clothes on, I told you /
Girl whatchu thinkin' about lookin' that tow down [ugly], I told you /
These men don't want no hot female that's-been-round-the-block-female, you nasty girl"
SpineyNorman
Inappropriate content removed
Everyone else was. So maybe it's you who's confused about what we're talking about.
sihhi
Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered
Why can't the white male simply identify as immigrant? That's what this is all leading to.
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
They exclude people who are uncomfortable with it. They exclude those who are not familiar with the vocabulary of hand signals. They (can) serve as a mask for intrinsic problems with participation.
They do have a role, a limited one, at some meetings I guess, but as a generalised approach? Hell no!
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
There are tumblr blogs where white people genuinely identify as being Japanese or black, so there's always that option.
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
As I said earlier any facilitator worth their salt would go over the hand signals first. It's not learning BSL.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
That was it, and a phrase in the article sums up exactly what I was talking about "there was also a group of about 200 people who we didn’t have facilitators for". Oh noes! We didn't have facilitators for them! So many of the anrchoid events around that time were inspired by raves and other events and unfortunately often had a similar producer/consumer divide. The producers would organise the fun games, the public would turn up and participate.Yes. That was it.
I was also there at the Sheffield event that they say was an inspiration. That was based on several tiny groups who all knew each otehr and who all made on the spot decisions. It was what chilango wants, i suppose. But then in the heaving industrial metropolis of Manchester on May 1st, the same model didn't work.
People turned up and there wasn't enough facilitators for them! I was one of those excess people, and we were fairly successful as a 200 strong crowd. People have to know ways of organising as a large crowd, instead of just backing away and deciding it's not your thing.
Random
Ethnic nalgocrat
So the system working relies on a cadre of trained facilitators to make it work?
DrRingDing
'anti-human wanker'
If you look people have been equatting hand signals with progessive stacks as mentioned more than once.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
yeah how can anyone who's a feminist think that's ok?
what's next, anti-racists defending the lyrics of skrewdriver songs?
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