Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Casually Red]

Fuck 'em. Them and their privilege-checking stack-obeying bullshit can fuck right off from any politics I have anything to do with. What a total waste of time, effort and energy, all to make some privileged cocksuckers feel better about themselves by ceding 1% of ground to people less privileged than them, basically salving their consciences for not sharing the other 99% of ground.

Kill 'em all, but slowly, in a work-camp. Every single one of the privilege-abusing, discourse-controlling shitcunts.

song was written for them

 

[Casually Red]

Mi5 must be pissing themselves with laughter at this stuff tbh

and the fash, its like a recruiting poster for them . If its making leftists want to kill them the effect on everyone else must be electric .

ive a conspiracy theory spooks are behind half of this shit . Face it, most of the wankers who fuck everything up went to school with them, and usually have a lot to lose. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day but without fail everytime capitalism meets a crisis wankers like this come out of the woodwork .

jazz fucking hands

 

[Casually Red]

This was a feeling that some had about procedure and 'process not protest':





Does this kind of sign separate distance between street viewer and sign-holder?

"This is a process which uses direct action to protest'" BUT "not a protest"

they should just hold up a sign saying we are taking the piss, nothing to see here, move along

 

[articul8]

If anything makes me see the benefit of Leninism it's the prospect of consensus-by-jazz-hands

 

[DaveCinzano]

Less Meetings.

More chats.

I think there is a balance to be struck - one might reasonably say that the likes of Jim Boyling were able to have an undue and disproportionate negative influence on RTS due to the vulnerability of that group's culture* of 'real business is decided through the chats outside of the meetings' - a culture that IMO deepened post-J18.

* Or perhaps "the culture of the more experienced/veteran group members" - which whilst short of an actual leadership group, for various reasons tended to drive forward the group despite participating less in the larger group meetings where newer people came and shared their own views, opinions etc.

 

[Red Cat]

There was a jazz hand occupation of a disused factory near us a couple of years ago. I went to one of their meetings with my new born and my 4 year old who drew pictures to give to the people in the meeting and I'm sure I must have broken all their rules, it was only after that it really hit me how out of touch I must have seemed to them. I remember a discussion about setting up a school there and people suggesting what kind of lessons could be given and I said that surely it would be better if they actually do something to the space they were using and have lessons or share skills through activity. I'm not sure what people thought of that cos I wasn't looking at their hands.

 

[Casually Red]

and heres another thing..progressive stack and jazz hands . What if your an african woman, possibly lesbian, whos lost her arms in a landmine explosion and you turn up to one of those things . As if life wasnt cruel enough..

 

[cesare]

AFA in a primary school circle.

The sign language stuff is apparently European and British, so the Americans can't be blamed - and you were there indavertenly popularising it at the start! (just joking)



http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_hand_gestur.html

Roberts Rules Of Order was American, and the sign language symbols are ASL based as I showed earlier with the ASL signing link. It's an import along with privilege theory.

 

[chilango]

I think there is a balance to be struck - one might reasonably say that the likes of Jim Boyling were able to have an undue and disproportionate negative influence on RTS due to the vulnerability that group's culture* of 'real business is decided through the chats outside of the meetings' - a culture that IMO deepened post-J18.

* Or perhaps "the culture of the more experienced/veteran group members" - which whilst short of an actual leadership group, for various reasons tended to drive forward the group despite participating less in the larger group meetings where newer people came and shared their own views, opinions etc.

Aye .

"Chats" don't work for bigger, more formalised/institutionalised groups. But the decision making procedures reflect the problems with having these bigger organised "things".

As I mentioned a couple of years ago when this last came up, the jazz hands phenomenon is just the other side of the coin to the fossilised procedures of the labour movement (as aped by more traditional leftist groups and NUS politics etc.).

That's why these things need breaking down. So that power and control isn't something that can be proceduralised (for good or Ill) at the centre.

 

[frogwoman]

there's also the fact that most people have never heard of jazz hands. that meeting seemed like one of those school summer camp things except with added guilt tripping. "Now kids, I know that we all want to do this but why dont we do that"

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Just started catching up on the British twitter intersectionality war. It's weirdly entertaining watching the "intersectional, privilege-checking, anarchoid, useless liberals and the very slightly famous commentariat useless liberals tearing chunks out of each other. I can't decide which side is more smug, more self-regarding, more aggravating or more pointless.

Here's the latest contribution, a white, male, cisgender, anarchist's guide to self-flagellation, with shout out to the anarchist federation: http://infantile-disorder.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/am-i-too-white-able-bodied-straight-and.html

 

[Random]

That's why these things need breaking down. So that power and control isn't something that can be proceduralised (for good or Ill) at the centre.

That's all very well, and smaller groups and local groups can fight to retain their autonomy. But like it or not there will be large gatherings and events and the anarcholeft has to have some ways of dealing with this. I remember mayday in manchester in (iirc) 2000, when hundreds turned up instead of the small "affinity groups" that the EF! organisers had wanted and the group that initiated the event had little clue what to do.

 

[sihhi]

Roberts Rules Of Order was American, and the sign language symbols are ASL based as I showed earlier with the ASL signing link. It's an import along with privilege theory.

Are we sure that the Americans didn't borrow it from the European squatted social centre activist scene before it was re-borrowed into Occupy London or whatever.

a room full of people who look suspiciously like a bunch of wankers doing jazz hands...jazz hands in the name of jesus christ

The American part is its increasing use out of the closed room in the open eg when speeches were being made as part of a sit-down demo at Times Square before the police cars came:

Protestors raising hands to shake them to display agreement with a speaker.

For good or ill they became a target of centre-left as well as right-wing attacks.

For some reason their press group mandated 2 protestors - Jason Guidas and Ketchup - to go on the Colbert Report, where surprise, surprise they are unfairly belittled:

See here: http://gawker.com/5855105/stephen-colbert-trolls-occupy-wall-street

and the comedian takes advantage of the hand signals to hit all of OWS for six (first part of this clip):

 

[Steel Icarus]

Just started catching up on the British twitter intersectionality war. It's weirdly entertaining watching the "intersectional, privilege-checking, anarchoid, useless liberals and the very slightly famous commentariat useless liberals tearing chunks out of each other. I can't decide which side is more smug, more self-regarding, more aggravating or more pointless.

Here's the latest contribution, a white, male, cisgender, anarchist's guide to self-flagellation, with shout out to the anarchist federation: http://infantile-disorder.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/am-i-too-white-able-bodied-straight-and.html

Aye, me too. Odd, innit. I posted this a page back but it got lost amidst the sparkle hands conversation so here it is again

ETA no it's not cos it's contained in what you've just posted

 

[frogwoman]

"Now I know we're all very excited about the fashion show but why don't we just have this meeting instead, and remember if you've got too many privileges you have to go back to the back of the line"

 

[chilango]

Fucking hell.

It's another world innit?

Very, very alienating stuff.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Oh, that's the geezer that I quoted much, much earlier in this very thread when he said "Straight white men who don't like intersectionality or privilege theory unfollow and if possible stop breathing".

 

[sihhi]

Just started catching up on the British twitter intersectionality war. It's weirdly entertaining watching the "intersectional, privilege-checking, anarchoid, useless liberals and the very slightly famous commentariat useless liberals tearing chunks out of each other. I can't decide which side is more smug, more self-regarding, more aggravating or more pointless.

Here's the latest contribution, a white, male, cisgender, anarchist's guide to self-flagellation, with shout out to the anarchist federation: http://infantile-disorder.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/am-i-too-white-able-bodied-straight-and.html

Is he attacking just the SWP here or all socialists?

"White men - and it nearly always is white men - who claim that we can deal with racism, sexism and other forms of oppression 'after the revolution' entirely miss the point. Dealing with them is an integral part of the revolution."

 

[DotCommunist]

Oh, that's the geezer that I quoted much, much earlier in this very thread when he said "Straight white men who don't like intersectionality or privilege theory unfollow and if possible stop breathing".

fucking hell, boiling it down to oppression top trumps, bring out the wheel etc

 

[chilango]

That's all very well, and smaller groups and local groups can fight to retain their autonomy. But like it or not there will be large gatherings and events and the anarcholeft has to have some ways of dealing with this. I remember mayday in manchester in (iirc) 2000, when hundreds turned up instead of the small "affinity groups" that the EF! organisers had wanted and the group that initiated the event had little clue what to do.

I remember that! I was there! (Sort of. We noticed the crowds and fucked off sharpish on our own...) I must have known you then?

Anyway, large gatherings and events, yeah, like I said a mixture of common sense and limiting the role of such gatherings.

 

[Casually Red]

"Now I know we're all very excited about the fashion show but why don't we just have this meeting instead, and remember if you've got too many privileges you have to go back to the back of the line"

meanwhile

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2013/mar/20/barclays-bonuses-budget-day

 

[chilango]

That's all very well, and smaller groups and local groups can fight to retain their autonomy. But like it or not there will be large gatherings and events and the anarcholeft has to have some ways of dealing with this. I remember mayday in manchester in (iirc) 2000, when hundreds turned up instead of the small "affinity groups" that the EF! organisers had wanted and the group that initiated the event had little clue what to do.

Was that the "Challenge Anneka/Anarchy" year?

 

[butchersapron]

Just started catching up on the British twitter intersectionality war. It's weirdly entertaining watching the "intersectional, privilege-checking, anarchoid, useless liberals and the very slightly famous commentariat useless liberals tearing chunks out of each other. I can't decide which side is more smug, more self-regarding, more aggravating or more pointless.

Here's the latest contribution, a white, male, cisgender, anarchist's guide to self-flagellation, with shout out to the anarchist federation: http://infantile-disorder.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/am-i-too-white-able-bodied-straight-and.html

As the Anarchist Federation women's caucus described in last year's inspirational pamplet 'The Class Struggle Analysis of Privilege':

It wasn't an AF pamphlet, none of it is AF policy, it was a contribution to an internal debate.

 

[cesare]

Are we sure that the Americans didn't borrow it from the European squatted social centre activist scene before it was re-borrowed into Occupy London or whatever.

We can't be sure at this stage because so far it's been sourced by reference to media reporting.

 

[frogwoman]

thing is i think all of this stuff is incredibly important and does need to be dealt with, as the SWP case shows

i think there's also issues with racism in these organisations as well, there's bound to be, we're all products of capitalist society

but jazz hands is not the way to fucking do it. whoever thought you could solve this shit with jazz hands and "intersectional" jargon thats going to fuck everyone off

 

[Casually Red]

I remember mayday in manchester in (iirc) 2000, when hundreds turned up instead of the small "affinity groups" that the EF! organisers had wanted and the group that initiated the event had little clue what to do.

my advice when that happens, take up an immediate collection before anyone gets the jazz hands out to object

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Is he attacking just the SWP here or all socialists?

The latter. The point is to equate privilege/intersectionality liberalism with opposition to racism, sexism and homophobia. If you don't accept their borrowed American analysis and structure, and you are a socialist, then by definition you think all that stuff is for "after the revolution".

 

[Nigel Irritable]

It wasn't an AF pamphlet, none of it is AF policy, it was a contribution to an internal debate.

What was the result of the internal debate in the end?

 

[sihhi]

Was that the "Challenge Anneka/Anarchy" year?

Was it this?
http://radicalmanchester.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/challenge-anarchy

Something similar to London MayDay's Anarcho-Monopoly - a series of potential protest sites all over central London?

 

[cesare]

It wasn't an AF pamphlet, none of it is AF policy, it was a contribution to an internal debate.

Although it then got exported to the Bookfair?