Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[cesare]

It's based on American Sign Language* so you can look up your own signs here: http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/BLOCK/3051/1

*Unlike my earlier ACAB in International Sign Language

 

[sihhi]

It was pretty clearly a protest, though.

Everyone knows it was a protest.

From the horse's mouth - a US feminist site:

at the occupation’s General Assembly’s they use progressive stacking [taking names of who wants to speaks with order preference to marginalized voices] — the problem being that people are identifying who’s marginalized by their appearance, which is slippery with gender and definitely doesn’t account for class

http://www.canonballblog.com/?p=3123

 

[Red Cat]

It was pretty clearly a protest, though.

A protest means being clear what you're against, being against something means you know what you're for, knowing what you're for means having an answer, having an answer means thinking you're right, thinking you're right means you need to check your privilege. And around it goes.

 

[Idris2002]

It's based on American Sign Language* so you can look up your own signs here: http://www.signingsavvy.com/sign/BLOCK/3051/1

*Unlike my earlier ACAB in International Sign Language

 

[sihhi]

bit bleak, isn't it? I mean there's working-class democracy to be found in all of those movements somewhere (even if it gets crushed/incorporated in the end, but that's history for you...)

Of course working class democracy is there and French Communism, American anarchism and Irish republicanism are positive efforts - the base keeping things honest. Even the trade unions from way back have essentially middle-class leaderships fulfilling a middle-class life of meetings with all manner of employers, accountants and government officials, only the exceptions stand out like A J Cook (and so sometimes come to symbolise the whole under a right-wing narrative)

 

[sihhi]

not everybody believes in or wants to conflate liberation campaigns with a critique of capitalism and that this should be respected if those campaigns are going to be able to be properly inclusive. Liberation campaigns are not your private army against the state

A stunning division into the properly inclusive immigrant liberals and improperly inclusive immigrants socialists.
Likewise properly inclusive liberal feminists and improperly inclusive radical feminists.

A smart form of radical-baiting - trying to draw the liberal vote.

In the early 1970s era of Broad Left student union full spectrum dominance in all bar the richest of universities this kind of bureaucrat might have been saying 'not everyone believes in or wants to conflate an anti-capitalist campaign with a critique about sexuality or homosexual students, socialist campaigns are not your private army against how other people feel about you'.

That kind of left student feeling is all over by the late 1970s - so there is change but the bureaucratism remains.

 

[chilango]

This is what I've said on this in the past.


I first encountered the hand gestures and all the "consensus decision making" stuff at an Earth First! meeting back in 1994 or so...I'd dragged a couple of friends along insisting that EF! was great and they should get involved. My friends being AFA/Red Action types sat open mouthed in disbelief as they were forced to sit on the floor, in a circle, with a bunch of hippies. Then the hands started flapping. I wasn't expecting it either, this being the first EF! meeting run in this way that I'd been to. Suffice to say, my friends never came back and wrote off EF! as a serious movement.

Embarassing, cultish and - crucially - disempowering. Such nonsense keeps nascent social movements retarded and seperates them from potential growth.

Jazz hands should be vociferally resisted, and if necessary ignored/over-ridden at open meetings.
chilango, Nov 25, 2011

and....

There are meetings where "jazz hands" can be a useful tool. Hell, I've been to many endless dreary work meetings full of people speaking for the sake of speaking where a talking stick and flopping hands would be eternally perferable...so for some organisational meetings it cane be a useful tool.

But, and this is my main objection, when the primary purpose of a meeting is that of building a movement, a struggle, a situation and a process of opening up to use what is essentially an insider language (no matter how simple) is of course going to alienate those who find it utterly different from the ways of communicating in group scenarios that they have used all their lives. To feel inhibited from full participation in such meetings is disempowering for the newcomers and for many already in the group wishing to open it up. Those more au fait with the insider language will already be in a relative position of power compared to those who aren't, and more able to control (willingly or not) the direction of the meeting - which is essentially the point of jazz hands anyway is it not?

In fairness many of the same criticisms can be levelled at a typical leftie meeting filled with arcane jargon and 2nd hand trade union mechanisms.
chilango, Nov 25, 2011

It's still my view on this.

 

[DrRingDing]

But, and this is my main objection, when the primary purpose of a meeting is that of building a movement, a struggle, a situation and a process of opening up to use what is essentially an insider language (no matter how simple) is of course going to alienate those who find it utterly different from the ways of communicating in group scenarios that they have used all their lives. To feel inhibited from full participation in such meetings is disempowering for the newcomers and for many already in the group wishing to open it up. Those more au fait with the insider language will already be in a relative position of power compared to those who aren't, and more able to control (willingly or not) the direction of the meeting - which is essentially the point of jazz hands anyway is it not?

In fairness many of the same criticisms can be levelled at a typical leftie meeting filled with arcane jargon and 2nd hand trade union mechanisms.
chilango, Nov 25, 2011

It's still my view on this.

What's your prefered method of facilitatiing a meeting?

 

[chilango]

Common sense.

 

[sihhi]

This is what I've said on this in the past.
I first encountered the hand gestures and all the "consensus decision making" stuff at an Earth First! meeting back in 1994 or so...I'd dragged a couple of friends along insisting that EF! was great and they should get involved. My friends being AFA/Red Action types sat open mouthed in disbelief as they were forced to sit on the floor, in a circle, with a bunch of hippies.

AFA in a primary school circle.

The sign language stuff is apparently European and British, so the Americans can't be blamed - and you were there indavertenly popularising it at the start! (just joking)

This kind of sign-language decision-making is a new staple of left-wing protests. The gestures were popularized in 2007 by European groups like Climate Camp, Seeds for Change, and UK Uncut, but they were showing up in protest manuals as early as 1994.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2011/10/occupy_wall_street_hand_gestur.html

 

[chilango]

Fuck! It is my fault!

 

[phildwyer]

Sorry, an elected student officer - a full time student politician on 18,000 quid.

FFS, these people are all about 18 years old. They'll grow out of the nonsense soon enough.

 

[Steel Icarus]

.

 

[J Ed]

FFS, these people are all about 18 years old. They'll grow out of the nonsense soon enough.

Yeah, they grow out of semi-principled 'identity' politics and into right-wing Labourites

 

[Thora]

It must be really difficult to decide who has more privilege just by scanning faces in a big meeting

 

[Balbi]

I've seen jazz hands used at University stuff - in the end, those who are best at knowing the system are the best at getting their points across. They know the full range, whereas new people don't. Barrier.

 

[DrRingDing]

I've seen jazz hands used at University stuff - in the end, those who are best at knowing the system are the best at getting their points across. They know the full range, whereas new people don't. Barrier.

If you want to speak, stick your hand up and you'll be put in the stack. Simplez.

 

[Balbi]

It must be really difficult to decide who has more privilege just by scanning faces in a big meeting

If you can attend the 6pm meetings at LSE or whatever, you're London class.

 

[DrRingDing]

Common sense.

I'm one for adopting a horses for course approach.

But when there is a large group of a people, a lot of people don't feel comfortable talking and you end up with a small number of people gassing on.

So what methods do you prefer?

 

[Balbi]

If you want to speak, stick your hand up and you'll be put in the stack. Simplez.

 

[stethoscope]

I was at a feminist action a while ago where all the meetings were conducted using this hand signal approach - which is immediately alienating if you're not 'clued up'. I just about learned the 'twinkle/downtwinkle' by the end of it. Whilst its important that discussions are such that people feel able to say stuff, not get talked over, etc. this stuff just seemed to be a bizarre distraction tbh.

 

[DrRingDing]

I was at a feminist action a while ago where all the meetings were conducted using this hand signal approach - which is immediately alienating if you're not 'clued up' - I just about learned the 'twinkle/downtwinkle' by the end of it. Whilst its important that discussions are such that people feel able to say stuff, not get talked over, etc. this stuff just seemed to be a bizarre distraction tbh.

Well any decent facilitator will go over this if there are new faces about. You had a shit facilitator.

 

[chilango]

I'm one for adopting a horses for course approach.

But when there is a large group of a people, a lot of people don't feel comfortable talking and you end up with a small number of people gassing on.

So what methods do you prefer?

If you've got yourselves into that situation you've problems anyway.

As I said above, smaller meetings.

Seriously. Far more conducive to discussion.

 

[Balbi]

Every bloody meeting an explanation to the new people, who'll have to attend a few meetings to get used to the rules. Good facilitating and chairing beats this stuff hands down - instant hierarchy of the knowledgable. A shitshow shibboleth.

 

[stethoscope]

Well any decent facilitator will go over this if there are new faces about. You had a shit facilitator.

I've been to shitloads of actions over the years where we seemed to get on just fine without it though.

 

[chilango]

Less Meetings.

More chats.

 

[DrRingDing]

If you've got yourselves into that situation you've problems anyway.

As I said above, smaller meetings.

Seriously. Far more conducive to discussion.

I agree but sometimes you can't help but have more than a few people in the discussion.

Also, even in small groups you get certain types mouthing off and reasoned voices being drowned out in the banter.

 

[Casually Red]

I was at a feminist action a while ago where all the meetings were conducted using this hand signal approach - which is immediately alienating if you're not 'clued up'. I just about learned the 'twinkle/downtwinkle' by the end of it. Whilst its important that discussions are such that people feel able to say stuff, not get talked over, etc. this stuff just seemed to be a bizarre distraction tbh.

is it just me or is anyone elses thoughts dominated by the spectacle of a room full of people who look suspiciously like a bunch of wankers doing jazz hands...jazz hands in the name of jesus christ . That shit is for unicyclists and jugglers .
And its got nothing to do with democracy because plainly some elite bunch of twats invented it and imposed it on others .
Capitalism is safe for another few centuries at least by the looks of things .

 

[chilango]

I agree but sometimes you can't help but have more than a few people in the discussion.

Also, even in small groups you get certain types mouthing off and reasoned voices being drowned out in the banter.

Yep.

Avoid creating situations where these "problem meetings" are important. Devolve decision making and power to the very bottom.

 

[J Ed]

is it just me or is anyone elses thoughts dominated by the spectacle of a room full of people who look suspiciously like a bunch of wankers doing jazz hands...jazz hands in the name of jesus christ . That shit is for unicyclists and jugglers .
And its got nothing to do with democracy because plainly some elite bunch of twats invented it and imposed it on others .
Capitalism is safe for another few centuries at least by the looks of things .

Mi5 must be pissing themselves with laughter at this stuff tbh