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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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Just as a quick aside on that, and i know i always mention it, but it really is important - the 74-79 period, the one we are sold as seeing the turning of the working classes back on the unions, membership actually went up and went up quite steeply (iirc).
I think what they're trying to sell is part and parcel of the anti-union spiel that underpins (and continues to underpin) anti-union measures designed to split/atomise the working class into more easily ruled segments. It's utter bollocks that the working class were turning against the unions. However some parts of the working class were demanding more of the unions and that increasing militancy got channelled away from class solidarity by way of eg the strength of the unions, into single issue stances & identity politics helped along by the top down mythmakers.
 
Just as a quick aside on that, and i know i always mention it, but it really is important - the 74-79 period, the one we are sold as seeing the turning of the working classes back on the unions, membership actually went up and went up quite steeply (iirc).

I have seen figures, can't find them now though that peak public disatisfaction with the trade unions coincided with peak membership, which I would lazily assume broadly indicated polarisation.
 
I think what they're trying to sell is part and parcel of the anti-union spiel that underpins (and continues to underpin) anti-union measures designed to split/atomise the working class into more easily ruled segments. It's utter bollocks that the working class were turning against the unions. However some parts of the working class were demanding more of the unions and that increasing militancy got channelled away from class solidarity by way of eg the strength of the unions, into single issue stances & identity politics helped along by the top down mythmakers.

It's also important to note that all the major trade unions in the UK have very active sections to represent women, black workers, disabled, LGBT, young etc - and that these were formed exactly because union members realised that the unions were prioritising some workers over others and there was a need for other members to organise together to promote their interests.

This was correct in my view and I would say most of the problems with these sections are simply down to their replication of existing structures and modes of poliics and action rather than down to them being divisive or seperatist or whatever.
 
One last post from me for the moment - it's also important to remember that when issuing broad brushstroke criticisms of the union movement, they tend to be large and unwieldy organisations containing many different and sometimes competing interests, as well as being political organisations - it does take time for people to have and win debates within such organisations - it is never certain that any large even vaguely democratic organisation is going to come to the correct view on any given issue at any given time without lots of discussion and falling out and mistakes.

The same would be true in my view for any genuinely mass democratic militant union movement.
 
I have seen figures, can't find them now though that peak public disatisfaction with the trade unions coincided with peak membership, which I would lazily assume broadly indicated polarisation.
Can't talk for the polling figures as not seen them (though i would note they are not as hard as membership figures) but if that's the case, yes broad polarisation in a time of economic crisis - but class movement away away from the traditional party into something that was seen as defending those class interests (inaccurately as we know).
 
It's also important to note that all the major trade unions in the UK have very active sections to represent women, black workers, disabled, LGBT, young etc - and that these were formed exactly because union members realised that the unions were prioritising some workers over others and there was a need for other members to organise together to promote their interests.

This was correct in my view and I would say most of the problems with these sections are simply down to their replication of existing structures and modes of poliics and action rather than down to them being divisive or seperatist or whatever.

Generally, at what point did the major unions start to have these active sections? In the back of my mind I have around mid 90s onwards ?
 
A colour bar that was instigated by workers originally, no?

No, by management who didn't approve of the idea of people from the "black" community wearing their uniform and representing their company.

Has there been much militant union support for female pay equality in workplaces that have more male than female workers? How is the struggle for equal pay going?

Historically, or presently?

As for the SWP, that's exactly what I'm talking about. The dominance of middle-class activists fetishising the working-class without ever being part of it. That's what the middle-class left does.

Fetishisation isn't the right word. They don't fetishize us, they fetishize the power that we represent - the power they want, the power they expect to attain by having us as the cannon fodder in their revolution. Typical vanguardism.[/quote]
 
It's also important to note that all the major trade unions in the UK have very active sections to represent women, black workers, disabled, LGBT, young etc - and that these were formed exactly because union members realised that the unions were prioritising some workers over others and there was a need for other members to organise together to promote their interests.

This was correct in my view and I would say most of the problems with these sections are simply down to their replication of existing structures and modes of poliics and action rather than down to them being divisive or seperatist or whatever.
Hmm. I think that was fine 40 years ago. The existence of separate sections still today says to me that not much progress has been made. Looks a lot like the failure of top-down multiculturalism to me.
 
Actually, in all my research on post-war trade unionism I've seen no evidence of trade unions demanding a colour bar, beyond the occasional isolated local official. TUC's official policy is opposition to racial discrimination from 1955 Congress.

You can certainly argue that trade unions didn't do enough to combat racism, but arguing that they instigated colour bars is historically inaccurate.

Yep. The (IIRC Rotherhithe/Bermondsey) dockers who marched for Powell in the late '60s/early '70s were an abberation compared to their fellow dockers elsewhere, for example.

(as to pay equality, there's several instances where largely male workforces supported women's pay claims and the opening up of employment opportunities to women - Morris Cowley and Ford Dagenham being two examples off the top of my head)

Same as the Scottish Hillman Imp plant.
 
One last post from me for the moment - it's also important to remember that when issuing broad brushstroke criticisms of the union movement, they tend to be large and unwieldy organisations containing many different and sometimes competing interests, as well as being political organisations - it does take time for people to have and win debates within such organisations - it is never certain that any large even vaguely democratic organisation is going to come to the correct view on any given issue at any given time without lots of discussion and falling out and mistakes.

The same would be true in my view for any genuinely mass democratic militant union movement.

It hasn't exactly helped that many of them have actively become large and unwieldy organisations *on purpose* seeking to replicate corporate behemoths on the basis that weight of numbers in total equals strength. Many grass roots members haven't seen this move towards large hierarchical structures as being helpful on a day to day basis in the workplace.
 
Hmm. I think that was fine 40 years ago. The existence of separate sections still today says to me that not much progress has been made. Looks a lot like the failure of top-down multiculturalism to me.

Really?

I dunno - I think it says lots of progress has been made, but loads still has to be made, and any progress that has been maintained has to be defended - the price of equality is eternal vigilance.;)

These sections are not comparable to top down multiculuralism or feminism or whatever as they were created and are led by the workers who self identified a need for them (and obviously bureaucrats but even they generally come from the same sections themselves).

Which is not to say of course that they don't buy into and reflect the problems of top down multiculturalism but that's because it is the only thing on offer.
 
It hasn't exactly helped that many of them have actively become large and unwieldy organisations *on purpose* seeking to replicate corporate behemoths on the basis that weight of numbers in total equals strength. Many grass roots members haven't seen this move towards large hierarchical structures as being helpful on a day to day basis in the workplace.

Exactly right. Too many have softened their message, to increase their numbers. But the move away from a willingness to take any sort of militant action has actually weakened their position.
 
Exactly right. Too many have softened their message, to increase their numbers. But the move away from a willingness to take any sort of militant action has actually weakened their position.
Where was the willingness historically? It rarely existed. They are not that sort of body. Militant reformism has always been forced on them via politics.
 
It hasn't exactly helped that many of them have actively become large and unwieldy organisations *on purpose* seeking to replicate corporate behemoths on the basis that weight of numbers in total equals strength. Many grass roots members haven't seen this move towards large hierarchical structures as being helpful on a day to day basis in the workplace.

I think this is a misrepresentation of what happened actually :p - there are two processes at work in parallel that both lead to organisational inertia.

1. There is a professional bureaucracy that seeks to perpetuate and defend its position (and that can be subdivided into various broad camps - but all with that essential element in common), and some members will see building a complex corporate structure as part of that, although they are on the decrease in my view as people wake up to the power of combining network theory with organising as ways of reducing democracy.

2. The need for the union movement to create democratic structures for lay activists to organise themselves (by idenity, industry, sector, workplace, geographical area etc) which have come together piecemeal in different ways in different unions, some of which have then merged further complicating the issue and where no committee, branch, sector group or industrial joint committee or whatever is prepared to abolish itself or it's conferences, meetings, forums etc...

I make no value judgements on either and I don't think either are "bad" however they are clearly not adequate to face the challenges of the future - and they will change - though not necerssarily in the right way or in time.

On the size thing - there seems to be two equally valid schools of thought.

A. Small, proffessional unions that are generally 'apolitical' and focussed can create a clear and strong identity and win real influence in a single relatively skilled industry which is immune from offshoring/undercutting etc.

B. One (or two or three) big union(s).
 
Where was the willingness historically? It rarely existed. They are not that sort of body. Militant reformism has always been forced on them via politics.

I agree to some extent. But - putting it very crudely - surely the most militant are the most likely to already be in a union, such that the extension of membership to less militant workers has the effect of 'watering down' militancy?
 
Exactly right. Too many have softened their message, to increase their numbers. But the move away from a willingness to take any sort of militant action has actually weakened their position.

Nope - unions soften their message because activists and the wider membership either don't feel the need to harden it - or because their leadership successfully mobilise to dampen down attempts to harden it by a militant minority, or because of a combination of those.

The fact is in most sectors most of the time union members or potential members do not share the aspirations of the far left, or a belief that militant tactics can help them achieve the aspirations they do have.

Exactly the same as the rest of the population amazingly.
 
I agree to some extent. But - putting it very crudely - surely the most militant are the most likely to already be in a union, such that the extension of membership to less militant workers has the effect of 'watering down' militancy?

Absolutely not no.

Union members join because they want representation if they get a problem at work, and see it as an insurance policy if they joined because they were the most militant we would have nearly 6 million supporters of militancy out there.
 
Nope - unions soften their message because activists and the wider membership either don't feel the need to harden it - or because their leadership successfully mobilise to dampen down attempts to harden it by a militant minority, or because of a combination of those.

The fact is in most sectors most of the time union members or potential members do not share the aspirations of the far left, or a belief that militant tactics can help them achieve the aspirations they do have.

Exactly the same as the rest of the population amazingly.

I wonder if some union leaderships don't see success in terms of the size of their membership, and try to stifle some of the more radical elements so as not to put off less militant potential members.
 
I agree to some extent. But - putting it very crudely - surely the most militant are the most likely to already be in a union, such that the extension of membership to less militant workers has the effect of 'watering down' militancy?
Not sure i follow you here. What do you agree with to some extent and what does the rest of it mean?
 
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