Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[ViolentPanda]

Yes, but that was their nickname. You'd be shitting it if they pulled up outside your block of flats, even if they were painted pink with yellow dots, and their passengers were dressed as cute squirrels.

To be fair, pink cars with yellow dots, and secret police dressed as squirrels would make my ring open even faster!

 

[equationgirl]

I'm actually disgusted. In what world are we privileged over laurie penny? LD and spiney are not famous, they are not guardian commentators and dont get to be on newsnight all of the time, so how are they privileged?

bullshit like this just makes a mockery of the idea of racism and sexism tbh.

Exactly - she is devaluing them, making them seem like trivial concepts instead of the nasty, narrow-minded non-trivial prejudices that many, many people have the misfortune of having to deal with every day.

 

[frogwoman]

It's male privilege that she's talking about, I assume according to the chart, Laurie Penny is equal in the privilege/oppression scales with you because you are both women:

View attachment 26336

Actually being jewish and bisexual i am probably more oppressed than her, but what the fuck?

it's such bollocks though. she has recourse to things that none of us have. she has powerful mates at the guardian and on telly and that. she can afford to spend most of the day talking shite because she has a lot more flexibility in her work etc than we do. she's in a kind of world few on here can actually imagine. She gets listened too for writing crap on the internet, she has a job whereby she mixes with very important and influential people on a day to basis whereas people like LD and spiney do not.

i'm actually disgusted tbh. does she seriously think that she will be treated worse in life, have worse life chances and all that, than them two simply by virtue of being a woman? because she must know that this is complete nonsense.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The infantilisation of society, actually.

How would you know? It's not as if you're LLETSA, is it?

 

[sihhi]

Well, that's kinda the way it reads to me as well sihhi. But, given Penny's seeming inability to even properly read Love Detective's and SpinyNorman's exchanges with her, it's hard to know!

If that's what she's saying, then:

Firstly it fails to account for middle class male oppression over women;
Secondly, its sexist and classist bollocks towards working class men;
Thirdly, privilege is all about one group of people's exercise of power over another.

I don't know the figures, is it correct to accept the assertion that working-class males commit more domestic violence than middle-class males?
Parminder Bhahchu iirc says no it's about equal, whilst Lynne Segal says/said yes.
Importantly though the power of middle-class men over working-class women manifests itself in restricting child benefit increases to under 1% a year for the 3rd year running, cutting nurseries, cutting public women's health facilities (whilst private services are available) - 'structural violence'.

 

[rekil]

we must have really got to her.

That's about right, you woman-hating bastard!

You joos. Wily. Troublemakers.

 

[frogwoman]

You joos. Wily. Troublemakers.

check your privilege

 

[chilango]

... because she must know that this is complete nonsense.

Ah.

Herein lies the problem.

How would she know it's nonsense?

 

[ViolentPanda]

I bet christmas dinner in jail must be well shit. He'd best opt for the halal choice

Kosher, probably.
Bet the coke he scores inside is better than his usual nose-vim, too!

 

[frogwoman]

the very fact that she has access to the networks that enable to get her writing, dire as it is, published in national newspapers, the knowledge of it, the knowledge of how to present yourself on tv and how to make it look like you have a clue what you're talking about on tv, the fact that she's able to divide her time between london and new york and not have to worry about the negative consequences of being arrested but instead look at it as something cool etc ...

 

[sam goloden]

she can afford to spend most of the day talking shite because she has a lot more flexibility in her work etc than we do.

To be fair, a majority of the population spends the day talking shite.

 

[Ibn Khaldoun]

Kosher, probably.
Bet the coke he scores inside is better than his usual nose-vim, too!

kosher is halal and halal is kosher - to most.

 

[frogwoman]

Ah.

Herein lies the problem.

How would she know it's nonsense?

Because she is famous. she appears on tv on a regular basis. she is mates with lots of other important famous people. and she is telling people like us that we are privileged? thats right, we are privileged over HER??

 

[DotCommunist]

so cool that she avoided it while crabby got a nicking. Would have queered her pitch visa wise to have taken a pinch from US coppers you see.

 

[stethoscope]

I don't know the figures, is it correct to accept the assertion that working-class males commit more domestic violence than middle-class males?
Parminder Bhahchu iirc says no it's about equal, whilst Lynne Segal says/said yes.
Importantly though the power of middle-class men over working-class women manifests itself in restricting child benefit increases to under 1% a year for the 3rd year running, cutting nurseries, cutting public women's health facilities (whilst private services are available) - 'structural violence'.

I editted my post after you quoted, sorry sihhi.

I've seen both figures to support it being about equal, and those where working class men commit more too.

I think you're totally right though - even if say working class men commit more dv than middle class men, again, its not working class men that have class/capital privilege - and surely class/capital privilege is ultimately responsible for wielding violence and power structurally and systemically over all?

Which kinda highlights where my frustration comes with analysing privilege within liberal identity politics. If the structural/systemic facet of class/capital is basically secondary to granular arguments of various privileges of one group over each other, then 'solutions' can also only ever be applied to fighting those specific aspects of privilege, and never as a whole (i.e. smashing capitalism/class). And ultimately, the former will never be overcome until the latter is.

 

[rekil]

Dave is clearly pursuing her own (ever so demented imho) quasi-autonomous vision of PD's multitudinous positionism theory.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm actually disgusted. In what world are we privileged over laurie penny? LD and spiney are not famous, they are not guardian commentators and dont get to be on newsnight all of the time, so how are they privileged?

bullshit like this just makes a mockery of the idea of racism and sexism tbh.

Laura makes the assumption that they're privileged because she's an adherent of identity politics, and therefore supports the idea of a "hierarchy of oppression" whereby any male in a patriarchal society is privileged over any female, regardless of that female's social status, earning power etc.

Here in "fuck your identity politics, it's class that matters"-land, we know that in fact it's Laura who needs to "check her privilege", and chuck the whole nonsense of a "hierarchy of oppression" out of the window.
But what do we know? We're state-educated, non-Oxbridge folk who aren't part of the commentariat. Our views don't matter.

 

[bluestreak]

class and gender are both important here. they massively overlap, with gender inequality a function of capitalism to my mind. removing patriarchy without removing capitalism, or capitalism without removing patriarchy, would continue to create unequal society. her analysis is off, in that she sees herself as a victim for being female without recognising her privilege for her class background. as we all know, historically middle class women given a taste of power tend to side with the patriarchy - else how else would they have come to power. here she suggests that a male twitter user no-one has ever heard of (no offence intended) somehow has more power than her, simply because of his maleness. nonsense. on the other hand, her brand of feminism doesn't include any feminists who don't think prostitution is ace (her words, pseudo-feminists), so it's clear that her brand of feminism is for middle class women with lots of wonderful free empowerfulised choices. as someone said earlier, what she needs is a few months doing outreach work for street prostitutes. a friend of mine who works as a campaigner in the field, trying to get funding to provide exit plans for prostitutes, pointed out to me that LP appears to be systematically attacking every different type of feminist one by one, and appears to have fallen out with or written arguments criticising every actual working class feminist 'name' in the UK. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think anyone here has used a position of journalistic power to undermine women's safety campaigners. but that would be because we're mysogynists. i guess if we started advocating boobjobs and stripping lessons in school we might be good feminists. not sure what it would take to be good lefties, jollies to greece to gawk at the poverty i spose.



there might be a point in there somewhere.

 

[sihhi]

Actually being jewish and bisexual i am probably more oppressed than her, but what the fuck?

I'm pretty sure she is East Europe origin Jewish (but non-observant) and also non-straight:

"Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
Someday, maybe when I'm less under attack, I'll write about being queer and polyamorous, and what that means for me politically. But not now"
https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/192264867313487872

So I think it will need a points decision.

 

[bluestreak]

i guess, in the end, if she had anything useful or revolutionary to say she'd be given the odd column somewhere now and again to generate clickbait. instead she is welcomed by the liberal elite because she doesn;t have a position at odds with mainstream liberalism, for all her claims towards anarchism and a-little-bit-communism. most of us learnt before we left university that a colourful haircut was not the same as anarchism. even me.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Actually being jewish and bisexual i am probably more oppressed than her, but what the fuck?

it's such bollocks though. she has recourse to things that none of us have. she has powerful mates at the guardian and on telly and that. she can afford to spend most of the day talking shite because she has a lot more flexibility in her work etc than we do. she's in a kind of world few on here can actually imagine. She gets listened too for writing crap on the internet, she has a job whereby she mixes with very important and influential people on a day to basis whereas people like LD and spiney do not.

i'm actually disgusted tbh. does she seriously think that she will be treated worse in life, have worse life chances and all that, than them two simply by virtue of being a woman? because she must know that this is complete nonsense.

I hate to break it to you, frogs, but Laura is "of Jewish ancestry" (according to her, so make of that what you will ), as well as having slept both sides of the bed., so you're probably equally oppressed.

 

[equationgirl]

@bluestreak : I think LP is fond of labels, basically.

If she is attacking other feminists, does she want to be recognised/viewed as the only 'true' feminist in the village, the only one fighting the good fight against the patriarchy?

 

[Dan U]

isn't she Irish as well. or am i getting muddled.

 

[rekil]

most of us learnt before we left university that a colourful haircut was not the same as anarchism. even me.

Some of us ain't been to no university. (but I did work in one when I was dave's age)

 

[ViolentPanda]

kosher is halal and halal is kosher - to most.

Unless you're Orthodox in your Islam or Judaism, at which point viewing the two as interchangeable becomes a good reason to stone you to death.

 

[frogwoman]

I hate to break it to you, frogs, but Laura is "of Jewish ancestry" (according to her, so make of that what you will ), as well as having slept both sides of the bed., so you're probably equally oppressed.

nah. she's never had any trouble as a result of either of those things.

 

[rekil]

isn't she Irish as well. or am i getting muddled.

"More Irish than English" yes.

 

[bluestreak]

I'm pretty sure she is East Europe origin Jewish (but non-observant) and also non-straight:

"Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
Someday, maybe when I'm less under attack, I'll write about being queer and polyamorous, and what that means for me politically. But not now"
https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/192264867313487872

So I think it will need a points decision.

oh god, polyamorous too. fucking hell, it's like pseud-bingo. i was polyamorous for a while. i didn;t know i was. i was just putting it about. imagine the shock i had when someone pointed it out. identity nonsense. polyamorous just means you can't keep it in your pants and you want a word that gives you an identity for it, so that when your boy or girlfriend gets upset you can point out that you're polyamorous and they're oppressing you for it.

 

[bluestreak]

isn't she Irish as well. or am i getting muddled.

in the words of Spike Milligan, Irish Jew in the name of the law!

 

[bluestreak]

Some of us ain't been to no university. (but I did work in one when I was dave's age)

You scholars at the University Of Life tend to learn the lesson about hair a lot younger, I must say.