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A thank you to Brexiteers.

redsquirrel said:
They certainly are when they have some silly twitter handle denoting their liberal love in.
Is it Labour people that are calling for PR? (At least in the main, I know there are some). I think a lot of LP people realise that FPTP is what has kept their party alive - in contrast to the other European social democratic parties.

Seems to me the PR is most favoured by the piss yellow scum (ala Maggot above) and the Corbyn leaning, progressive coalition crowd that have now tended to have left the LP. What's bizarre is that the aims of these two groups are opposed.
I can understand why liberals want PR, they (correctly) believe it would reinforce their power, for the LDs giving them more seats (and effectively becoming the kingmakers), and for the liberals in the LP it provides a block on the left of the party. I cannot really understand the support of PR from the latter, it would block any possibly of democratic socialism (at least in the medium term).
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One possible reason would be precisely because it would split the labour party. Something like what has happened in Spain. So you still have a labour party, equivalent of psoe, but you also have a 'left of Labour' party, equivalent of podemos. With pr it is very possible that the two can end up in coalition in power, or at the least with the right labour needing the left Labour's support.

You may criticise the idea but it's not without logic as a strategy.

You could also argue that it is good for democracy and engagement for a vote for a left party to be electorally meaningful, as it is in Spain.
 
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littlebabyjesus said:
One possible reason would be precisely because it would split the labour party. Something like what has happened in Spain. So you still have a labour party, equivalent of psoe, but you also have a 'left of Labour' party, equivalent of podemos. With pr it is very possible that the two can end up in coalition in power, or at the least with the right labour needing the left Labour's support.

You may criticise the idea but it's not without logic as a strategy.

You could also argue that it is good for democracy and engagement for a vote for a left party to be electorally meaningful, as it is in Spain.
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It would be good for democracy if there was some in this country, rather than simply the illusion of it
 
littlebabyjesus said:
One possible reason would be precisely because it would split the labour party. Something like what has happened in Spain. So you still have a labour party, equivalent of psoe, but you also have a 'left of Labour' party, equivalent of podemos. With pr it is very possible that the two can end up in coalition in power, or at the least with the right labour needing the left Labour's support.
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And the end result of this is - a left-liberal government. Podemos have effectively become the left wing of the PSOE (and have seen their vote share decline), how is that any different to a Labour government with a strong left wing. If that is the politics you want fine but jack in the talk about "democratic socialism".

But the above assumes that the UK would follow Spain (and Portugal). As this Jacobin article points that is far from a certain path - it is not true in Germany, Greece, Italy, or the Netherlands.
This model, in its original sites, also relied upon a particular set of circumstances that may not hold for very long. First of all, it required the radical-left parties to lower their sights and accept the kind of policy agenda with which their social-democratic partners would be comfortable. That meant there would be no real break with the economic paradigm of the last forty years.
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redsquirrel said:
And the end result of this is - a left-liberal government. Podemos have effectively become the left wing of the PSOE (and have seen their vote share decline), how is that any different to a Labour government with a strong left wing. If that is the politics you want fine but jack in the talk about "democratic socialism".

But the above assumes that the UK would follow Spain (and Portugal). As this Jacobin article points that is far from a certain path - it is not true in Germany, Greece, Italy, or the Netherlands.
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In Portugal, the 'troika' between the Socialist Party, Communist Party and Left Bloc ended in the last election when the Socialist got enough votes to end it. Despite the separation, Left Bloc adopted a remarkably soft line with the SP and paid for it in the Presidential elections ( aided and abetted with a campaign that resembled Momentum) seeing their vote reduce by around a third. They've now had to change tack.
 
The39thStep said:
In Portugal, the 'troika' between the Socialist Party, Communist Party and Left Bloc ended in the last election when the Socialist got enough votes to end it. Despite the separation, Left Bloc adopted a remarkably soft line with the SP and paid for it in the Presidential elections ( aided and abetted with a campaign that resembled Momentum) seeing their vote reduce by around a third. They've now had to change tack.
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And Podemos has suffered a similar decline in fortune - from polling 21% in 2015 & 2016, to 14/13% in 2019, to the latest opinion polling haven them ~11%.

The biggest beneficiaries of centre-left/radical-left coalitions are the centre-left.
 
redsquirrel said:
And Podemos has suffered a similar decline in fortune - from polling 21% in 2015 & 2016, to 14/13% in 2019, to the latest opinion polling haven them ~11%.

The biggest beneficiaries of centre-left/radical-left coalitions are the centre-left.
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Sure. But in the UK's fptp system, radical left positions have held zero sway over any government policy for more than 40 years. We had a moment with Corbyn but he never made it into power, and any radical left influence within Labour has evaporated again.

Podemos went from not existing to being in government in the space of five years.
 
For four-/five years "democratic socialists" held forth about how important it was that Corbyn was elected, about the potential this had, that those asking what was different this time were simply engaging in ultra-leftism or wannabe revolutionaries, that Labour councillors should be supported despite their attacks on workers. Now the LP is unreformable and PR is the answer. Christ.
 
redsquirrel said:
For four-/five years "democratic socialists" held forth about how important it was that Corbyn was elected, about the potential this had, that those asking what was different this time were simply engaging in ultra-leftism or wannabe revolutionaries, that Labour councillors should be supported despite their attacks on workers. Now the LP is unreformable and PR is the answer. Christ.
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Dunno if that's directed at me or not. I've always been in favour of PR fwiw.
 
Maggot said:
What a cunt.

Not being in favour of a system which gives tories 56% of the seats with 43% of the votes does not mean I'm a lib dem.
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Indeed. And 'First Past the Post' is a really badly named system. There is no post. Hence big majorities can go to parties with well under half the vote. No way you'd ever design a system from scratch like that.
 
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redsquirrel said:
Nope your shitty pro-EU, liberal technocratic politics that denies class does that. You might not actually vote LD but you are a great example of their politics. Crypto-libdemism,
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Wow, must have taken you a while to dig out posts from 10-11 years ago just to try to prove your point. People are allowed to change their mind (except about Brexit of course).

Denying class :D :D :D
 
I have a genuine question when it comes to brexit, and I'm being serious.

But why do we not hear anything about chlorinated chicken anymore? Before we left it was all over the news, but now it seems to have disappeared.

Are the chickens chlorinated or not?
 
Count Cuckula said:
I have a genuine question when it comes to brexit, and I'm being serious.

But why do we not hear anything about chlorinated chicken anymore? Before we left it was all over the news, but now it seems to have disappeared.

Are the chickens chlorinated or not?
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I didn't think it had gone anywhere tbh. Maybe Biden putting the dampeners on a quick UK/USA trade deal means it's on the back burner for a while.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Because people have died in the UK after eating Polish (EU) chicken.
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Yes that must be it. We don't need to worry about US food standards because the EU ones aren't perfect.

Nothing to do with the US having food poisoning rates 10 times higher than here.

Fears new trade deals with US will increase UK food poisoning | Sustain

Fresh analysis by Sustain published today flags food safety fears for future UK trade deals. Figures suggest that the percentage of people who fall ill with food poisoning annually is up to ten times higher in the US than the UK. Sustain fears treating increased food poisoning could increase...
www.sustainweb.org www.sustainweb.org
 
Maggot said:
Yes that must be it. We don't need to worry about US food standards because the EU ones aren't perfect.

Nothing to do with the US having food poisoning rates 10 times higher than here.

Fears new trade deals with US will increase UK food poisoning | Sustain

Fresh analysis by Sustain published today flags food safety fears for future UK trade deals. Figures suggest that the percentage of people who fall ill with food poisoning annually is up to ten times higher in the US than the UK. Sustain fears treating increased food poisoning could increase...
www.sustainweb.org www.sustainweb.org
Click to expand...


How many chlorinated chicken articles can you find since the Polish killer chicken thing broke?
 
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