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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Rob Ray said:
I considered name checking that as well to head off butwhatabout and thought "nah too obvious".
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So, your conclusion having "insulated myself a bit too successfully from some of the more childish end of that argument because I've not seen it in a while" was that the use of one word was 'nah, too obvious', but the other word " was schoolyard cringe when it first became popular, let alone years down the line" and the rest of the content - for example suggestions that P&O workers got what they deserved because their union supported leave or that 400,000 steel jobs lost whilst in the EU proves that Brexit is to blame - was absolutely fine and not cringe.

Excellent. Glad we've cleared matters up. Well done.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
So, your conclusion having "insulated myself a bit too successfully from some of the more childish end of that argument because I've not seen it in a while" was that the use of one word was 'nah, too obvious', but the other word " was schoolyard cringe when it first became popular, let alone years down the line" and the rest of the content - for example suggestions that P&O workers got what they deserved because their union supported leave or that 400,000 steel jobs lost whilst in the EU proves that Brexit is to blame - was absolutely fine and not cringe.

Excellent. Glad we've cleared matters up. Well done.
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I'd not seen Brexshit in quite a while either, but remembered it fine as the other side of schoolyard coin. They are both cringe af, the only difference is I saw yours while reading and was genuinely a bit surprised it hadn't died out. I suppose I shouldn't have been, same sorts of people who held on to "Bliar" for years. Honestly though anyone still using it, (or Brexshit, there you go) can't then complain about the tenor of debate - if you can't rise above ner ner ner ner why would you expect anyone else to?
 
Rob Ray said:
I'd not seen Brexshit in quite a while either, but remembered it fine as the other side of schoolyard coin. They are both cringe af, the only difference is I saw yours while reading and was genuinely a bit surprised it hadn't died out. I suppose I shouldn't have been, same sorts of people who held on to "Bliar" for years. Honestly though anyone still using it, (or Brexshit, there you go) can't then complain about the tenor of debate - if you can't rise above ner ner ner ner why would you expect anyone else to?
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I'm not complaining about the tenor of debate - you are.

Much more of an issue for me is the middle class liberal garbage passed off as coherent political analysis that's clogged this thread up for years. Plus, in some cases and by a few posters, the dishonest smearing and representation of the left leave position.

The latter is the reason I have stopped engaging on this thread - and why I will continue to ignore it - unless called out of course.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
I try to keep off this thread because it’s full of bad faith remoaners…this is a classic example. So, bye…
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This is a complaint about the tenor of the debate. In which you call people remoaners. it is in fact the thing I was responding to, and quoted. And you then followed it up with more complaints in the post in which you said you weren't complaining.

Get it together eh?

Or actually stop engaging like you keep saying you will.
 
Rob Ray said:
This is a complaint about the tenor of the debate. In which you call people remoaners. it is in fact the thing I was responding to, and quoted. And you then followed it up with more complaints in the post in which you said you weren't complaining.

Get it together eh?

Or actually stop engaging like you keep saying you will.
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1. No, it refers to the level of debate. The context to my post - which you haven't engaged with at all - was that the suggestion by remainers that Brexit was behind the decline of jobs in the steel industry was palpably wrong. Also wrong, was the deliberate or otherwise attempt to contruct an argument that WTO state aid rules prevented the UK Govt from intervention.

2. I had stopped engaging until you posted and named me.

I'll leave others to decide who needs to get it together and stop posting pompous bollocks.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
1. No, it rerers to the level of debate. The context to my post - which you haven't engaged with at all - was that the suggestion that Brexit was behind the decline of jobs in the steel industry was palpably wrong

2. I had stopped engaging until you posted and named me.

I'll leave others to decide who needs to get it together and stop posting pompous bollocks.
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"Tenor" refers to the tone and direction of a discussion. When you complain about people's bad faith take and call them moaners that's tenor.

And in this case fwiw I read, and actually pretty much agreed with the substance of your take, despite the obnoxious tone. I think the destruction of the industry in Britain probably isn't helped by the mess the Tories have made of UK-EU trading systems, but it isn't the culprit for a process that's been ongoing for decades as part of Britain's (and indeed Europe's) general deindustralisation in the wake of neoliberal economics. I don't often dip into this thread because, frankly, I do think the tenor is often poor - but don't pretend you aren't also responsible for that when you act like this.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
1. No, it refers to the level of debate. The context to my post - which you haven't engaged with at all - was that the suggestion by remainers that Brexit was behind the decline of jobs in the steel industry was palpably wrong. Also wrong, was the deliberate or otherwise attempt to contruct an argument that WTO state aid rules prevented the UK Govt from intervention.

2. I had stopped engaging until you posted and named me.

I'll leave others to decide who needs to get it together and stop posting pompous bollocks.
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So the first minister of wales was wrong? Citation please. Preferably with actual evidence this time, since the last thing you cited didn't even mention the state aid you claimed it did
 
The39thStep said:
Maybe ? More like " Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."
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We're certainly drawing a lot of conclusions beyond 'maybe', based on fuck all. I suppose it's the Urban way.

As for principles, I've hardly ever met someone whose didn't evolve and change over time. Especially over brexit. And if this individual was a 'remainer' but now has decided 'leave' was right all along, well he's hardly alone in that. Not to mention all the traffic in the other direction.

I think it's just any excuse to lob a stone isnt it.
 
Rob Ray said:
"Tenor" refers to the tone and direction of a discussion. When you complain about people's bad faith take and call them moaners that's tenor.

And in this case fwiw I read, and actually pretty much agreed with the substance of your take, despite the obnoxious tone. I think the destruction of the industry in Britain probably isn't helped by the mess the Tories have made of UK-EU trading systems, but it isn't the culprit for a process that's been ongoing for decades as part of Britain's (and indeed Europe's) general deindustralisation in the wake of neoliberal economics. I don't often dip into this thread because, frankly, I do think the tenor is often poor - but don't pretend you aren't also responsible for that when you act like this.
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Whilst I'm pleased to note that you 'pretty much' agreed with 'my take' it's interesting that you were triggered to break your monastic silence by the use of the word remoaner rather than the suggestion that a) the butchery of an entire industry and communities - 400,000 steel jobs gone while in the EU - was somehow the fault of Brexit and b) risible claims that state aid is impossible (effectively the same argument as Sunak's by the way, although even he's not stupid enough to cite the WTO).

Page after page on this thread is full of this sort of nonsense and it just passes you by. Then the word 'remoaner' is typed and off you go eh....
 
mojo pixy said:
We're certainly drawing a lot of conclusions beyond 'maybe', based on fuck all. I suppose it's the Urban way.

As for principles, I've hardly ever met someone whose didn't evolve and change over time. Especially over brexit. And if this individual was a 'remainer' but now has decided 'leave' was right all along, well he's hardly alone in that. Not to mention all the traffic in the other direction.

I think it's just any excuse to lob a stone isnt it.
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If?
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Whilst I'm pleased to note that you 'pretty much' agreed with 'my take' it's interesting that you were triggered to break your monastic silence by the use of the word remoaner rather than the suggestion that a) the butchery of an entire industry and communities - 400,000 steel jobs gone while in the EU - was somehow the fault of Brexit and b) risible claims that state aid is impossible (effectively the same argument as Sunak's by the way, although even he's not stupid enough to cite the WTO).
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As I've said repeatedly, it was linked to feeling surprised that the line was still being used. Much as I prefer not to disabuse people of illusions that I'm interesting, there wasn't a dastardly plot to undermine your main point by forcing you to throw a wee tantrum at me.
 
Rob Ray said:
As I've said repeatedly, it was linked to feeling surprised that the line was still being used. Much as I prefer not to disabuse people of illusions that I'm interesting, there wasn't a dastardly plot to undermine your main point by forcing you to throw a wee tantrum at me.
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Don't worry, I haven't felt for one second that anything you've said has undermined my argument.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
a) the butchery of an entire industry and communities - 400,000 steel jobs gone while in the EU - was somehow the fault of Brexit and b) risible claims that state aid is impossible (effectively the same argument as Sunak's by the way, although even he's not stupid enough to cite the WTO).
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Not wishing to butt into your discussion with Rob Ray but...I do think that your accurate observation that neoliberal deindustrialization occurred whilst the UK was an EU member is important. But the fact that the process continues apace, now that the UK has left the supra-state, does offer some perspective on the importance of Brexit compared to modes of global capitalist accumulation.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
Whilst I'm pleased to note that you 'pretty much' agreed with 'my take' it's interesting that you were triggered to break your monastic silence by the use of the word remoaner rather than the suggestion that a) the butchery of an entire industry and communities - 400,000 steel jobs gone while in the EU - was somehow the fault of Brexit and b) risible claims that state aid is impossible (effectively the same argument as Sunak's by the way, although even he's not stupid enough to cite the WTO).

Page after page on this thread is full of this sort of nonsense and it just passes you by. Then the word 'remoaner' is typed and off you go eh....
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This thread has been clogged up for years by misrepresentations in which anyone with anything good to say about the UK's EU membership is somehow a cheerleader for neoliberalism. It was rubbish eight years ago and it's rubbish now. Something that is not neoliberalism is not and never was on the table, Brexit or not.

And I'm yet to see anything good about Brexit. A thousand negatives, ranging from the small (queuing at passport control, loss of free roaming on your phone, loss of automatic health care rights in Europe) to the medium (increased bureaucracy, ball-aches for touring bands) to the larger-scale (non-UK people needing to register, loss of right to bring in an EU spouse, loss of right to work in Europe). Not a single positive. Not one. It's not cheerleading neoliberalism to point that out.
 
It's something I've found frustrating that there's so few spaces where a clear-headed conversation can be had in which basics like:
  • The Lexit critique of the EU has some good points to make
  • The Remain position wasn't based on nothing, especially regarding the arguments of the socialist left
  • Viewing Brexit as having damaged the UK's economy and living standards doesn't necessarily involve having a mindless pro-EU position
  • The interplay between global economics, the particular position of chaotic Toryism, EU politicking, multiple world crises etc is complex, meaning Brexit can be both impactful and non-conclusive
Are so hard to keep factored in.
 
Rob Ray said:
It's something I've found frustrating that there's so few spaces where a clear-headed conversation can be had in which basics like:
  • The Lexit critique of the EU has some good points to make
  • The Remain position wasn't based on nothing, especially regarding the arguments of the socialist left
  • Viewing Brexit as having damaged the UK's economy and living standards doesn't necessarily involve having a mindless pro-EU position
  • The interplay between global economics, the particular position of chaotic Toryism, EU politicking, multiple world crises etc is complex, meaning Brexit can be both impactful and non-conclusive
Are so hard to keep factored in.
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Agree with the tenet of your post, but there do seem to be a full 8 pages of Brexit related threads on here if you search the word:

1706209289024.png
 
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