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A thank you to Brexiteers.

Yes. I imagine plenty of Brits will carry on living under the radar in Spain. Earning money as they have always done like doing cash in hand building work for Brit home owners & similar. Plenty have lived lifestyles flitting between UK & Spain earning money in UK then living in Spain for a bit.

Now I would guess for any living that sort of lifestyle life has got more difficult & if caught overstaying the 90 days may well be barred from returning to Spain ? Time will tell how much various countries enforce the 90 day rule but the days of Brits just casually living out in continental Europe appear to be over. If passports will be stamped in & out then there is no hiding the overstay & there is possibility of fine & being barred from returning.

It is not just the duckers & divers affected. Plenty saw their retirements as living in a motorhome or caravan most of the time down in Spain with trips back to their house in UK once or twice a year. Ok they can also go over to Morocco for 90 days as well but plenty are not that ambitious they just want to tow their caravans down in October to the same site in southern Spain they have been going to for years. Doing a cheap long stay deal with the site & returning to UK in about May. Only the minority though & little sympathy for them generally with their baby boomer good pensions & in future they will have to cut their stays over winter to 3 months.
 
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dessiato said:
No one, at this time, is being kicked out. That is just the British press scaremongering.
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I havent read anyone saying people are being rounded up and kicked out? The issue raised is that people without the necessary credentials will find themselves slowly filtered out as they try and cross borders, access services etc. It will be a gradual process. Same in the UK for EU citizens without status from this summer.
Only so long you can be under the radar
 
BobDavis said:
Yes. I imagine plenty of Brits will carry on living under the radar in Spain. Earning money as they have always done like doing cash in hand building work for Brit home owners & similar. Plenty have lived lifestyles flitting between UK & Spain earning money in UK then living in Spain for a bit.

Now I would guess for any living that sort of lifestyle life has got more difficult & if caught overstaying the 90 days may well be barred from returning to Spain ? Time will tell how much various countries enforce the 90 day rule but the days of Brits just casually living out in continental Europe appear to be over. If passports will be stamped in & out then there is no hiding the overstay & there is possibility of fine & being barred from returning.

It is not just the duckers & divers affected. Plenty saw their retirements as living in a motorhome or caravan most of the time down in Spain with trips back to their house in UK once or twice a year. Ok they can also go over to Morocco for 90 days as well but plenty are not that ambitious they just want to tow their caravans down in October to the same site in southern Spain they have been going to for years. Doing a cheap long stay deal with the site & returning to UK in about May. Only the minority though & little sympathy for them generally with their baby boomer good pensions & in future they will have to cut their stays over winter to 3 months.
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On entering Spain now your passport is stamped, unless you are residencia permanente. Although some officials are stamping anyway. Some people, to get around this, think going to another Schengen country for one or two days will allow them a longer stay. This is not the case. passports are supposed to be checked and stamped on exit. I don’t know if this is happening yet.

As it stands there is the possibility of a fine, and/or jail, and/or banning from Schengen zone, or banning for, say, five years.

I expect this situation will change as Spain aligns the British more closely with the other third countries.

It is because of this that we made sure all our paperwork to become residencia permanente before January.

I don’t know if other EU states, eg Portugal, are doing it this way. IIRC The39thStep is in Lisbon and will know how they’re being treated.
 
BobDavis said:
To retire in Spain unless living there pre brexit & registered as a resident now will cost a Brit as much a it would to retire to Florida or Oz Gold Coast. A lot. Ie buy house. Prove income & pay health insurance. I think even existing Brit residents in Spain have had to prove at least £21000pa income each which has fucked up a lot of Brit pensioners there. Also Spanish bureaucracy is difficult to negotiate. T
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Thats the first time im reading the details of what it takes to move. Seems its all over for future Brits retiring in Spain (or out of the UK in general) basically, but for a few rich people. Same as coming to the UK of course - in fact the provable income is higher for the UK IIRC.
 
dessiato said:
On entering Spain now your passport is stamped, unless you are residencia permanente. Although some officials are stamping anyway. Some people, to get around this, think going to another Schengen country for one or two days will allow them a longer stay. This is not the case. passports are supposed to be checked and stamped on exit. I don’t know if this is happening yet.

As it stands there is the possibility of a fine, and/or jail, and/or banning from Schengen zone, or banning for, say, five years.

I expect this situation will change as Spain aligns the British more closely with the other third countries.

It is because of this that we made sure all our paperwork to become residencia permanente before January.

I don’t know if other EU states, eg Portugal, are doing it this way. IIRC The39thStep is in Lisbon and will know how they’re being treated.
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I know several people who moved to Spain late last year - mostly British Hong Kong residents who decided to retire to Spain a little early because of both Brexit and the political situation in HK.

What's the general feeling among expats in Spain - are they saddened that their communities might wither, or glad that the drawbridge is being pulled up? From what I've seen of expat communities elsewhere, my guess would be the latter.
 
Yossarian said:
I know several people who moved to Spain late last year - mostly British Hong Kong residents who decided to retire to Spain a little early because of both Brexit and the political situation in HK.

What's the general feeling among expats in Spain - are they saddened that their communities might wither, or glad that the drawbridge is being pulled up? From what I've seen of expat communities elsewhere, my guess would be the latter.
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Unfortunately this is the case in some areas. We chose, very deliberately, to avoid those areas so cannot accurately comment. From reading various Brit immigrants (we are not ex-pats, we're immigrants) Facebook pages there's a lot who still don't know the new rules apply to them. There's many saying they will stay because Spain couldn't cope without them. They're beginning to wake up, but they blame the EU.
 
Portugal has bent over backward re the UK and Brexit requirements. Anyone here before the deadline still has grace, due to the covid restrictions to apply for residency and the requirement for residents to exchange driving licenses has been extended to Dec 31st. Haven't a clue about the stamping of passports as there have been no direct flights since the confinement was imposed in January.Did read on the British Embassy Facebook that it's illegal to stamp passports for those who have residency. The minimum income for residency ( there are different types ) is around the level of the minimum wages so about £8k I guess.
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.
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The fawning over the EU itself is something I don't think I will ever fully understand. I can understand feeling proud of one's country of birth, or of one's adoptive country, but the fucking EU?! Loyalty to a trading bloc has got to be one of the saddest things going.
 
NoXion said:
The fawning over the EU itself is something I don't think I will ever fully understand. I can understand feeling proud of one's country of birth, or of one's adoptive country, but the fucking EU?! Loyalty to a trading bloc has got to be one of the saddest things going.
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It might just be a succesful troll, tbf.
 
NoXion said:
The UK can get a better one at some point. On the other hand, the EU will never have anything that truly belongs to it in cultural terms. It's ontological intertia free-rides on the existence of all the real countries that make it up.
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I think that what attracts isn't the eu itself but the sense of and possibilities for community that the EU made / makes possible. More notions perhaps than anything concrete. I think any look at the EU as it's constructed is like looking at the picture of dorian grey but from a remove it can appear very appealing. The European ideal is a very seductive idea. There is I think a great deal to be said for a European federation in principle: but the way the EU is currently constituted has severe limitations and shortcomings which we've talked at length here, thinking of the frontiers for example. The growth of the EU has led to institutions which are by no means fit for purpose, staffed by mediocrities out of their depth. If you wanted a European community with which people here could identify you wouldn't start from here!
 
Bahnhof Strasse said:
Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.
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When I had to go out to France last year, I noticed that the EU flag GB stickers were reduced to clear. So I bought one and stuck it on the car. I hope, in a way, that it really annoys the kind of person who likes to be annoyed by such things.

The douane officer wasn't annoyed. "Mais pas après Brexit, monsieur", he grinned, pointing at it.
 
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Pickman's model said:
I think that what attracts isn't the eu itself but the sense of and possibilities for community that the EU made / makes possible. More notions perhaps than anything concrete. I think any look at the EU as it's constructed is like looking at the picture of dorian grey but from a remove it can appear very appealing. The European ideal is a very seductive idea. There is I think a great deal to be said for a European federation in principle: but the way the EU is currently constituted has severe limitations and shortcomings which we've talked at length here, thinking of the frontiers for example. The growth of the EU has led to institutions which are by no means fit for purpose, staffed by mediocrities out of their depth. If you wanted a European community with which people here could identify you wouldn't start from here!
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Yeah, it's not ideas of European federalism or pan-European identity that puzzle me, it's the latching on to the EU as if that was some kind of meaningful proxy of that. Europe meant something before the EU, and Europe will still mean something even when the EU has become long forgotten.
 
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Bahnhof Strasse said:
Just saw a 21 plate car with an EU GB bit on the number plate, that's pretty tragic.
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Bit unclear about the law. I‘ve seen a couple of 21 euro plates on Dacia Dusters. The local Renault/Dacia franchise has always fitted euro plates on all cars new & used as a matter of course & appears to be still doing so. Some websites will tell you that no euro plates can be fitted to any car after start of this year. Existing cars with euro plates are ok but must have GB sticker on outre manche. The actual .gov website does not say euro plates cannot still be fitted but does not mention them on the section on numberplate identifiers. The .gov website does say the only format that does not require GB sticker abroad is plate with union flag & GB identifier on left hand end. Except in Spain where you still need a GB sticker !

I’m keeping the euro plates on my 4 yr old car & I got a magnetic GB sticker to put on when I do go over again. In practise I can’t see French cops giving a fuck. I have been waved past vehicle checks in towns presumably because cops can’t be arsed with non French speakers. :)
 
I understand that Euro plates are no longer valid, a Union Flag where the EU flag currently is will be valid “in most EU countries”, it doesn’t say which countries it is not valid in. Safest just to bung a regular GB sticker on the back of the car and be done with it.
 
NoXion said:
Yeah, it's not ideas of European federalism or pan-European identity that puzzle me, it's the latching on to the EU as if that was some kind of meaningful proxy of that. Europe meant something before the EU, and Europe will still mean something even when the EU has become long forgotten.
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It’s utterly incomprehensible to me how anyone who professes to be ‘on the left’ or even a liberal could attach so much emotional investment and political capital in a neo-liberal project that is essentially managed on behalf of nation states by the IMF, ECB and unelected EU commissioners. Anderson’s recent essays on the EU and Varoufakis’ superb account of how the troika operates in practise should be essential reading.

As Pickman’s Model had commented Europe as an idea, as a possibility, as a lived experience is seductive and I can totally see why some younger people in particular confused Europe with the EU. I’m European and I’ll always like Europe.

But for continuity remain you have to conclude that the EU has become a lodestar: both a rallying cry for a particular form of Blairite, middle class identity politics and an - imagined - land where they could escape from provincial and working class England. In essence, a body erroneously invested with values and cultures that imbue its fanatical supporters with a feeling of superiority over the unwashed.

Those feelings are littered throughout FBPE and on the debates here. Their strawman response when challenged: that Tory Britain is worse - is both flawed in the sense that changing that is entirely possible and lies within our own collective hands, but is also loaded with other value judgments about what precisely they mean by that which you don’t need to scratch far below the surface to uncover.
 
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Smokeandsteam said:
It’s utterly incomprehensible to me how anyone who professes to be ‘on the left’ or even a liberal could attach so much emotional investment and political capital in a neo-liberal project that is essentially managed on behalf of nation states by the IMF, ECB and unelected EU commissioners. Anderson’s recent essays on the EU and Varoufakis’ superb account of how the troika operates in practise should be essential reading.

As Pickman’s Model had commented Europe as an idea, as a possibility, as a lived experience is seductive and I can totally see why some younger people in particular confused Europe with the EU. I’m European and I’ll always like Europe.

But for continuity remain you have to conclude that the EU has become a lodestar: both a rallying cry for a particular form of Blairite, middle class identity politics and an - imagined - land where they could escape from provincial and working class England. In essence, a body erroneously invested with values and cultures that imbue its fanatical supporters with a feeling of superiority over the unwashed.

Those feelings are littered throughout FBPE and on the debates here. Their strawman response when challenged that Tory Britain is worse is both flawed in the sense that changing that is entirely possible and lies within our own collective hands but is also loaded with other value judgments about what precisely they mean by that which you don’t need to scratch far below the surface to uncover.
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A well argued post.
 
Smokeandsteam said:
As Pickman’s Model had commented Europe as an idea, as a possibility, as a lived experience is seductive and I can totally see why some younger people in particular confused Europe with the EU. I’m European and I’ll always like Europe.

But for continuity remain you have to conclude that the EU has become a lodestar: both a rallying cry for a particular form of Blairite, middle class identity politics and an - imagined - land where they could escape from provincial and working class England. In essence, a body erroneously invested with values and cultures that imbue its fanatical supporters with a feeling of superiority over the unwashed.
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I think a lot starts before Blair; the miserable state of the UK in the 70s, then under Thatcher. The Holiday Programme on a Sunday evening with Frank Bough or Russel Harty going on motoring tours across Europe, with blue skies and beautiful medieval cities, was very exotic for those of us that had only ever been on UK camping holidays. I’m not sure the point when you become middle class, perhaps when your parents chose that over the package tour to Spain.
around the same time was Auf Wiedersehen, Pet. When I was an apprentice a lot of the skilled trades had worked in Germany. British manufacturing will never recover from Thatcherism. The skilled trade deficit sucked in the Poles and Lithuanians, who were a motivation for the leave vote.
l’ve lived and worked in the Netherlands and italy. I’m not sure I could have carried on my job being based in London as the withdrawal agreement, as written and if implemented, is very restrictive to conferences and service engineers on long term service contracts. No more immediate response when ships crash.

The real test will be the relative trajectories of the EU and UK economies as COVID works itself out. In the early 80s France was all elderly 2CVs And was poor. it’s much more prosperous now and the UK might have a shock when the jobs start moving to mainland Europe. Trying to save steel works now seems like it’s all in vane. A booming Europe and England rerunning Thatcherite misery will tip the balance. The 7 counties were only kept as part of the union as they were industrialized and rich. Ireland will unify when it’s clear that the north has an economic imperative to do so. It seems to be on the way. Scotland seems to see it’s future in Europe (it’s not clear Europe would have them).

I’m planning my retirement in Portugal. I’m lucky I’ve managed to save sufficient that I won’t be relying on the state pension.
 
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