A thank you to Brexiteers.

[The39thStep]

At least everybody seems to be on the page now about Brexit having been handled abysmally, makes a change from a few years ago when people were posting tables of pork export statistics or whatever in posts that could have been mistaken for Conservative press releases.

Let’s not forget the brief foray of posts quoting ski resort agencies or au pair suppliers . Wasn’t there some speculation as well that the only reason why supermarket shelves are no longer empty was due to the huge amount of deaths from covid ?

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Let’s not forget the brief foray of posts quoting ski resort agencies or au pair suppliers . Wasn’t there some speculation as well that the only reason why supermarket shelves are no longer empty was due to the huge amount of deaths from covid ?

You’ve forgotten the export data supplied by the association representing food and beverage bosses - at the height of the pandemic - poured over by Planet Remain on here for days and produced as evidence of the end times

 

[brogdale]

Depends on the context and other contingencies for me.

Presumably, from a tory perspective, the main metric by which the 'success' of turning the weakness of (plebiscite) defeat into the strength of opportunity will be the speed with which they can accelerate supply-side reforms to weaken labour protections.

 

[bimble]

If it's mainly the older, richer voters who are still enamoured of brexit surely they're going to vote tory regardless.

Or the reform party apparently. So that’s great.

 

[A380]

Or the reform party apparently. So that’s great.

View attachment 362920

But don't spoil the lovely Lexiteers' world by pointing out their only remaining allies are right wing head bangers. If only we reactionary remoners would believe, and say 'I do believe in Lexit" three times before our bed time coco we would have the promised socialist Lexit utopia by Thursday,

 

[brogdale]

Frost is trying to rally the true believers today to counter the the treacherous rapprochement of last week's quisling summit of the remoaniac tendancy!

Patriots looking to "fully and enthusiastically embrace its advantages".

 

[gentlegreen]

For me, the challenge is to separate the useful idiots from the dark cynical forces - Putin, currency speculators etc ...
There must be a lot in the middle espousing "low tax" theories, while rationalising their profiting from it and the destruction of the lives of millions ...

 

[ska invita]

Patriots looking to "fully and enthusiastically embrace its advantages".

Good signs! Perhaps finally we will see a:

Return to prioritisation of a national economy driven by a national investment bank and an industrial strategy
Increased public ownership of utilities and key parts of the economy
Strengthened collective bargaining arrangements and an end to the use of free movement of labour to undercut wages.
Devolved power to local communities

 

[Yossarian]

Frost is trying to rally the true believers today to counter the the treacherous rapprochement of last week's quisling summit of the remoaniac tendancy!

Patriots looking to "fully and enthusiastically embrace its advantages".

View attachment 363015

I think we'll hear more of the "real Brexit has never been tried" argument as the next election comes closer.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Good signs! Perhaps finally we will see a:

This, for me anyway, is a fundamental problem for Planet Remain. Here we have a poster snarkily conflating Frost's comments with mine. Whilst it might get a few likes from other Remain loons as a form of politics its at the level of the playground. It doesn't deserve comment and its not designed to stimulate serious debate.

Similarly, the habit on here of raising a question and then asking an entirely different one when it's answered is both tiresome and revealing of a lack of substance. The lack of any coherent argument, vision or ideas lost reman the war and it'll lose it the peace too whatever Mandelson, civil service mandarins and the captains of industry think.

 

[ska invita]

This, for me anyway, is a fundamental problem for Planet Remain. Here we have a poster snarkily conflating Frost's comments with mine. Whilst it might get a few likes from other Remain loons as a form of politics its at the level of the playground. It doesn't deserve comment and its not designed to stimulate serious debate.

Similarly, the habit on here of raising a question and then asking an entirely different one when it's answered is both tiresome and revealing of a lack of substance. The lack of any coherent argument, vision or ideas lost reman the war and it'll lose it the peace too whatever Mandelson, civil service mandarins and the captains of industry think.

it wasnt meant to be totally snarky by the way, more flippant
it was more flagging up the massive gulf between the dominant political realities and what any of us might like to see happen in UK politics

 

[brogdale]

This, for me anyway, is a fundamental problem for Planet Remain. Here we have a poster snarkily conflating Frost's comments with mine. Whilst it might get a few likes from other Remain loons as a form of politics its at the level of the playground. It doesn't deserve comment and its not designed to stimulate serious debate.

Similarly, the habit on here of raising a question and then asking an entirely different one when it's answered is both tiresome and revealing of a lack of substance. The lack of any coherent argument, vision or ideas lost reman the war and it'll lose it the peace too whatever Mandelson, civil service mandarins and the captains of industry think.

Snarky, playground, unworthy or non-serious it may or may not be, but it does again highlight one of the most problematic aspects of the lexit position; that the wagon had to be hitched to the caravan of some of the most repugnant, rapacious right-wing elements that befoul our body politic.

 

[Yossarian]

I kind of wish I lived in Smokeandsteamworld where Lexit was a real possibility with massive support and the only thing standing in the way was a handful of deluded Planet Remain loons

 

[Smokeandsteam]

it wasnt totally snarky by the way, more flippant
it was more flagging up the massive gulf between the political reality and what any of us might like to see happen in UK politics

On point 1 we do not agree.

On point 2 the Tories won the last election and were the only party that went in to it promising to deliver the result of the vote. The gulf you describe is the political process - your side lost and in doing also fucked the possibility of a Corbyn led government committed to implementing Brexit.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Snarky, playground, unworthy or non-serious it may or may not be, but it does again highlight one of the most problematic aspects of the lexit position; that the wagon had to be hitched to the caravan of some of the most repugnant, rapacious right-wing elements that befoul our body politic.

No. it doesn't. It's a shit form of argument that doesn't deserve response.

 

[ska invita]

your side lost and in doing also fucked the possibility of a Corbyn led government committed to implementing Brexit.

i didnt vote for remain shock horror! and i supported corbyns (original) position on brexit, and was against a second ref and all that went along with that rallying

 

[brogdale]

No. it doesn't. It's a shit form of argument that doesn't deserve response.

I understand that it's an uncomfortable truth.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I kind of wish I lived in Smokeandsteamworld where Lexit was a real possibility with massive support and the only thing standing in the way was a handful of deluded Planet Remain loons

Otherwise known as the actual existing position in 2017. Corbyn was leading in the polls and promising to deliver the result of the popular vote. But remain defeated him

 

[ska invita]

Otherwise known as the actual existing position in 2017. Corbyn was leading in the polls and promising to deliver the result of the popular vote. But remain defeated him

this is clearly true
it was majority opinion amongst labour members though, 2 to 1 iirc so mood of conference was clear

 

[Yossarian]

Otherwise known as the actual existing position in 2017. Corbyn was leading in the polls and promising to deliver the result of the popular vote. But remain defeated him

...in 2017.

 

[philosophical]

Patriotism?
‘Listen old chap, I’m in charge so be a good fellow and go over there and die for me, it is your patriotic duty according to me’.

 

[bimble]

What happened in September last year that might explain this ?

Graph says that from the time Johnson's deal was announced in 2019 until late last year, the majority of leave voters seem to have felt that the government was doing 'well' at brexiting.

How the government is handling the issue of Brexit in the UK

How well or badly do you think the government is handling the following issues? Britain's exit from the EU

yougov.co.uk

 

[ska invita]

it does again highlight one of the most problematic aspects of the lexit position; that the wagon had to be hitched to the caravan of some of the most repugnant, rapacious right-wing elements that befoul our body politic.

More than that the big brexit choice for me was all about recognising forces of power being what they are, and concluding that Brexit would far more likely lead to a Britannia Unchained vision than it would what Smokey outlined above.

The lexit argument made at the time as i remember it was that yes the balance of power was there for the right, but this different vision would have to be fought for and then it could be implemented, as is the case for any 'progressive' change.

Fair enough...worth a punt? My feeling was that by the time of the actual vote there was nowhere near enough of a sign that such a fight had any chance of reaching real governmental power. If the case didn't have significant popular support by the time of the vote it wouldn't when it came to implementation

 

[ska invita]

What happened in September last year that might explain this ?

Graph says that from the time Johnson's deal was announced in 2019 until late last year, the majority of leave voters seem to have felt that the government was doing 'well' at brexiting.

How the government is handling the issue of Brexit in the UK

How well or badly do you think the government is handling the following issues? Britain's exit from the EU

yougov.co.uk

possibly not any one thing its just a general trend? 'cost of living crisis' getting worse too sharpens this all

 

[Smokeandsteam]

...in 2017.

Yes, that's what it wrote. So far from the fantasy of a few lexit supporters in your casual re-write of history

 

[gentlegreen]

Call me cynical, but we do what we can and with rampant nutjobs in the dominant UK party that my apparently reasonably intelligent, but useful idiot parents faithfully voted for all their lives, the EU always appeared to me to be of nett benefit.
I grew up within spitting distance of Concorde, briefly worked in MAFF and took home freebie butter mountain samples and then worked for 20 years in a university languages faculty with Erasmus students and research grants ...

With regards the standard argument that the EU started out as a German coal sand Steel cartel blah blah ... ... all I can say is that I prefer that to "Fuck Business" and my country getting asset-stripped to the bone ... and as for doing individual trade deals with the USA and the like...

After dumping Labour post-Iraq, in 2019 I actually joined the party and did a token leaflet-drop on the border with Tory land - "Lexit" or not, perhaps naively, as with my assumption that the Tories would 1. not get us out of Europe, 2. At least have a plan, my hope was that Corbyn, or Starmer would at least do what they could to do the most good for the most people in the circumstances ...

I know F-all about British history and politics but hopefully will make up for it by learning how to be French - where it all looks far more impassioned and worth understanding ... I will be glad to be living in the heart of the EU... .

 

[teqniq]

The only data I’ve seen shows plenty of voters angry with the Tories squandering the possibilities open up by Brexit. It does not show a popular hankering - outside planet remain - for rejoining the EU project

You still have not supplied a link for the data you talk about that I requested. Moreover there is this recent date which doesn't seem to have anything to do with 'planet remain' which indicates that people 45% would like to rejoining as a pose to 39% staying out:

Do voters want the UK to rejoin the EU?

Polls putting Rejoin ahead owe more to Leave voters’ apathy than to genuine opposition to Brexit.

sotn.newstatesman.com

 

[Pickman's model]

You still have not supplied a link for the data you talk about that I requested. Moreover there is this recent date which doesn't seem to have anything to do with 'planet remain' which indicates that people 45% would like to rejoining as a pose to 39% staying out:

Do voters want the UK to rejoin the EU?

Polls putting Rejoin ahead owe more to Leave voters’ apathy than to genuine opposition to Brexit.

sotn.newstatesman.com

yeh but that's from last month so is losing its relevance

 

[gosub]

More than that the big brexit choice for me was all about recognising forces of power being what they are, and concluding that Brexit would far more likely lead to a Britannia Unchained vision than it would what Smokey outlined above.

The lexit argument made at the time as i remember it was that yes the balance of power was there for the right, but this different vision would have to be fought for and then it could be implemented, as is the case for any 'progressive' change.

Fair enough...worth a punt? My feeling was that by the time of the actual vote there was nowhere near enough of a sign that such a fight had any chance of reaching real governmental power. If the case didn't have significant popular support by the time of the vote it wouldn't when it came to implementation

Fair enough. Though dont think the window of another referendum under a different government was ever going to present itself

 

[Pickman's model]

possibly not any one thing its just a general trend? 'cost of living crisis' getting worse too sharpens this all

View attachment 363029

i wonder what happens when the green line goes below zero