99% of my landlords don't want Afro-Caribbeans or other troublemakers

[revol68]

You can call it what you like.

My point is terms like uncle tom and coconut are racialised. They draw on historical associations and expectations of what it means to be Black, how black people should behave, who they should or should not align themselves with etc and on what basis. To see them used here and justified for me completely ignores the importance/impact of institutionalised and internalised racism. It suggests to me the person using them does not have a deep understanding of the impact of internalised racism and a reaction to racism. It reinforces historical notions of inherent cultural similarities and ignores the fact that class hierarches and the perception of those things has always existed. Equally that different people's identities are not simply formulated on account of them sharing a shade of skin or shared experiences of racism/oppression they never have been. Black and Asian people are in this way as diverse and complex as everyone else, the expectation that they are not and therefore should only draw allegiances along 'race' lines for me reinforces racism and classism, 'racialised classism' in fact.

No amount of quoting Malcom X at me changes that view by the way. He had his journey, his words you quote were in context, I am sure I can find you a quote of his to support my position too.

I have never denied they are racialised, what I merely did was try to give my reasoning as to why I felt Uncle Tom is generally less problematic than something like Coconut. That reasoning being that Uncle Tom essentially equates to a slave equivalent of "scab", someone who joins in on the oppression of "their own", who sides with the oppressor. Coconut on the other hand is simply a racialised concept of what people should behave like in a much wider cultural sense.

I haven't in any way tried to justify them being used in the manner you suggest, I have simply gave reasons why Uncle Tom is a less racist term, by looking at where it came from and even it's contemporary use where it is more often related to a critique of those with power. Having said that I also stated that I do think it problematic for exactly the reasons you've just laid out.

I'm not quoting Malcolm X at you, I am simply pointing out that terms like Uncle Tom and House Nigger have an origin in black people fighting back against racism despite the issues that arise from them and indeed the black power movements in general.

Equally that different people's identities are not simply formulated on account of them sharing a shade of skin or shared experiences of racism/oppression they never have been.

Again I agree with that but on the otherhand you can't disregard the oppositional identities that do come out of that, that do base themselves around a shared experience of racism or discrimination, and the subsequent contempt these movements will have for those that they deem to have betrayed that shared experience by alligning with the oppressor.

Basically to label the term Uncle Tom racist would involve labeling the likes of the Black Panthers or Revolutionary League of Black workers racist too and that for me is too close to a liberal notion of it being about "attitudes" divorced from history and power dynamics.

Anyway I think we are talking largely at cross purposes cos I've never intended to defend any idiot on here using Uncle Tom as an insult for Mehdi Hasan, or for that matter to attack any other poster on here for not acting in a correct manner. Personally, I've been called a castle catholic and tame taig on urban for not supporting Irish republicanism so I'm quite alert to that kind of bullshit and have absolutely no intention of defending that kind of logic.

 

[krtek a houby]

You were called a twat far more often.



Class is only a complicating factor if you want it to be. If you were honest and stated "I don't give a shit about class, spare me your class analysis", people might have a bit more respect for you, but as it is you make your antipathy appear to be born out of some commonsense assessment of class, when it really isn't an assessment at all, just prejudice.



You do need an open mind, though, and you don't have one. You're one of those tiresome people who know that they're right.

Isn't that odd, I was going to say the exact same thing about you. My prediction that the usual suspects would hijack the thread and turn this into another dull predictable class tirade has been realised.

 

[revol68]

Isn't that odd, I was going to say the exact same thing about you. My prediction that the usual suspects would hijack the thread and turn this into another dull predictable class tirade has been realised.

you made it a discussion about class and racism you hysterical twat. the discussion then moved on to the use of uncle tom and coconut.

 

[krtek a houby]

actually there is a good discussion to be had baou



Sorry this post has not an once of substance to it. It reads like you're more interested in asserted how opposed you are to racism whilst not wanting to bother having to look at where it comes from, what sustains it and how it is articulated. It's the kind of liberal anti racism that imagines its just about getting people to respect each other.

It's like imagining sectarianism and the troubles happened cos people were simply ignorant and mean, rather than the outcome of deeper structural and historical factors.

I've fought against racism and prejudice all my life, so don't you dare patronise me, I know exactly where it comes from and the impact it has on loved ones, family, friends. Just what I fucking hate is some bespectacled shouty class warrior barging in to something that affects me directly and telling us, "hey man, you have to learn the genesis of racism first, otherwise you'll never beat it". Jog on, you bearded twat and stuff your PHD up your anal flange.

 

[butchersapron]

I've fought against racism and prejudice all my life, so don't you dare patronise me, I know exactly where it comes from and the impact it has on loved ones, family, friends. Just what I fucking hate is some bespectacled shouty class warrior barging in to something that affects me directly and telling us, "hey man, you have to learn the genesis of racism first, otherwise you'll never beat it". Jog on, you bearded twat and stuff your PHD up your anal flange.

What have you got against spectacle wearers?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Isn't that odd, I was going to say the exact same thing about you.

No you weren't, because I'm not one of the posters you've previously accused of "stalking" you, etc. In fact I've defended you before, but of course your self-righteousness doesn't allow you to recognise that.

My prediction that the usual suspects would hijack the thread and turn this into another dull predictable class tirade has been realised.

Show my where in my post responding to your claims there's a class tirade, and I might agree with you.

As it is, as ever, you've got nothing except your own deluded self-righteous opinions about class.

 

[revol68]

I've fought against racism and prejudice all my life, so don't you dare patronise me, I know exactly where it comes from and the impact it has on loved ones, family, friends. Just what I fucking hate is some bespectacled shouty class warrior barging in to something that affects me directly and telling us, "hey man, you have to learn the genesis of racism first, otherwise you'll never beat it". Jog on, you bearded twat and stuff your PHD up your anal flange.

I'm wearing contacts and don't have a Phd, I do have a beard though.

BTW the first person to explicitly mention class on this thread was you, like I said your posts on this thread are basically hysterical.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I've fought against racism and prejudice all my life, so don't you dare patronise me, I know exactly where it comes from and the impact it has on loved ones, family, friends. Just what I fucking hate is some bespectacled shouty class warrior barging in to something that affects me directly and telling us, "hey man, you have to learn the genesis of racism first, otherwise you'll never beat it". Jog on, you bearded twat and stuff your PHD up your anal flange.

I too have spent the better part of my life involved in anti-rascism and anti-fascism, and one thing has always been abundantly clear to me - that racism (and most other -isms) can only function in an environment where there is also an active system of class discrimination. Remove class from the equation and the societal infrastructure that sustains those other -isms crumbles.

This isn't about the academic view on class politics, this is about lived experience, and the fact that you feel fine validating your own experiences above those of others, and shout them down with remarks about beards and spectacles, well that says a lot about you, and your self-righteousness.

 

[revol68]

also Krtek your argument that "this affects me directly" and so people should shut up is exactly the kind of thing you hate being suggested in relation to the north and republicanism...

 

[ViolentPanda]

What have you got against spectacle wearers?

He wants to have us all killed for being intellectuals.

 

[butchersapron]

He wants to have us all killed for being intellectuals.

He's worse than pol pot.

 

[krtek a houby]

He wants to have us all killed for being intellectuals.

Don't be ridiculous.

 

[butchersapron]

How have the various letting agents and EA groups reacted to this? Have they reacted at all beyond PR?

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm wearing contacts and don't have a Phd

but do you have an 'anal flange' because I for one would like to know what one is

 

[krtek a houby]

also Krtek your argument that "this affects me directly" and so people should shut up is exactly the kind of thing you hate being suggested in relation to the north and republicanism...

Oh for Kanye's sake, I'm not calling on censorship here. Feel fine to turn up on someone's doorstep next time they have dogshit posted through the letterbox and explain to them about the class struggle. I'll stick to my own methods.

 

[revol68]

but do you have an 'anal flange' because I for one would like to know what one is

An ass/vagina hybrid?

I don't have one, no. I imagine it's the kind of thing you'd have to order from specialist retailers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Don't be ridiculous.

Get a sense of humour.

 

[krtek a houby]

He's worse than pol pot.

You just carry on stroking your beard, cowboy

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's worse than pol pot.

Pol Pot at least didn't have it in for beardies.

 

[butchersapron]

You just carry on stroking your beard, cowboy

I'm relectant to laugh at your anger due to the serious nature of the thread, but don't you think this unfocused hate is how discrimination starts?

 

[revol68]

Oh for Kanye's sake, I'm not calling on censorship here. Feel fine to turn up on someone's doorstep next time they have dogshit posted through the letterbox and explain to them about the class struggle. I'll stick to my own methods.

You are a clueless cunt.

And enough with the "anti racist hero" bullshit, a fair few posters on here have been involved in actively stopping racist attacks on immigrants homes, infact the time the roma families were being attacked in Belfast it was precisely those people with a class perspective that physically defended the houses, namely Socialist Party members and Anarchists.

The fact that the attacks were being carried out by youth from a deprived loyalist area, obviously means nothing, it was just a coincidence that it wasn't barristers from the Malone Rd doing it. Likewise anti immigrant sentiments have fuck all to do with politicians and the media making them scapegoats for the failings of capitalism.

Racism and class, nothing to do with each other, nope, it's just bad, ignorant, individuals...

 

[krtek a houby]

I'm relectant to laugh at your anger due to the serious nature of the thread, but don't you think this unfocused hate is how discrimination starts?

It usually starts with a select few urbanites with you and/or pickman circling above waiting until the kill has been made. There's been a long campaign against me on urban and it kicks off every so often until I have to leave for a few months.

You won't win this time. But you have form for bullying people on urban with your incessant picking away.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh for Kanye's sake, I'm not calling on censorship here. Feel fine to turn up on someone's doorstep next time they have dogshit posted through the letterbox and explain to them about the class struggle. I'll stick to my own methods.

You still don't get it. It's not about saying "the dogshit was about your class, not your race", it's about saying "the racism that saw dogshit getting posted through your letterbox is sustained by, and is a result of, the existence of a quasi-codified set of class relations that allow some people to view others as lesser beings. Racism extends from that fundamental set of relations". As does any form of sexism, any other form of "othering" of minorities.

This isn't rocket surgery, it's basic human relations stuff. Society was and is currently constructed to drive a set of human relations that perpetuate class divisions. Other social prejudices extend from them, and are validated by them.

 

[krtek a houby]

You are a clueless cunt.

And enough with the "anti racist hero" bullshit, a fair few posters on here have been involved in actively stopping racist attacks on immigrants homes, infact the time the roma families were being attacked in Belfast it was precisely those people with a class perspective that physically defended the houses, namely Socialist Party members and Anarchists.

The fact that the attacks were being carried out by youth from a deprived loyalist area, obviously means nothing, it was just a coincidence that it wasn't barristers from the Malone Rd doing it. Likewise anti immigrant sentiments have fuck all to do with politicians and the media making them scapegoats for the failings of capitalism.

Racism and class, nothing to do with each other, nope, it's just bad, ignorant, individuals...

Fuck off with your soapboxing. You're a fucking fake, I can spot them a mile away.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It usually starts with a select few urbanites with you and/or pickman circling above waiting until the kill has been made. There's been a long campaign against me on urban and it kicks off every so often until I have to leave for a few months.

You won't win this time. But you have form for bullying people on urban with your incessant picking away.

Jesus, get over your martyr complex, you muppet!

 

[krtek a houby]

You still don't get it. It's not about saying "the dogshit was about your class, not your race", it's about saying "the racism that saw dogshit getting posted through your letterbox is sustained by, and is a result of, the existence of a quasi-codified set of class relations that allow some people to view others as lesser beings. Racism extends from that fundamental set of relations". As does any form of sexism, any other form of "othering" of minorities.

This isn't rocket surgery, it's basic human relations stuff. Society was and is currently constructed to drive a set of human relations that perpetuate class divisions. Other social prejudices extend from them, and are validated by them.

No, I don't get it. Millions of us don't get it. Why don't you and the other preachers go out onto other sites where actual prejudices get aired all the time and educate them? You're wasting time with the converted here, I tell you.

 

[revol68]

Fuck off with your soapboxing. You're a fucking fake, I can spot them a mile away.

A fake what?

 

[krtek a houby]

Jesus, get over your martyr complex, you muppet!

I am not a martyr, this gets trundled out everytime I'm shouted down on boards. It's getting old now.

 

[revol68]

No, I don't get it. Millions of us don't get it. Why don't you and the other preachers go out onto other sites where actual prejudices get aired all the time and educate them? You're wasting time with the converted here, I tell you.

Honestly, what is there not to get.

If racism isn't a class issue then why are black people the overwhelming victims of it, has it no relation to a campaign of dehumanisation to legitimise their kidnapping and slavery, or later on to justify segregation. Are you going to suggest that slavery isn't a class relation?

How did the irish go from being savage apes to being "white", how come white romanians and poles came to be targets of racism in a way that hasn't happened to rich russians?

 

[krtek a houby]

Honestly, what is there not to get.

If racism isn't a class issue then why are black people the overwhelming victims of it, has it no relation to a campaign of dehumanisation to legitimise their kidnapping and slavery, or later on to justify segregation. Are you going to suggest that slavery isn't a class relation?

How did the irish go from being savage apes to being "white", how come white romanians and poles came to be targets of racism in a way that hasn't happened to rich russians?

It's dominion, people holding power over others, that could be anyone. Of any "class".

Anyways, I'm tired now. Tired of all this, repetition. Time out.