99% of my landlords don't want Afro-Caribbeans or other troublemakers

[revol68]

I don't know what you mean.

Are you saying that coconut is not a racist term?

We were specifically talking about uncle tom and nigger.

Coconut is clearly a racist term and like I said puts racist expectations of behaviour on people. As butchers has pointed out, it is actually those with no class perspective who tend to fall back on these terms in order to make sense of cultural and economic divisions within "races".

 

[Smyz]

We were specifically talking about uncle tom and nigger.

Coconut is clearly a racist term and like I said puts racist expectations of behaviour on people. As butchers has pointed out, it is actually those with no class perspective who tend to fall back on these terms in order to make sense of cultural and economic divisions within "races".

Sorry, I forgot which term was the focus.

Are you saying that Uncle Tom is not a racist term?

 

[revol68]

Sorry, I forgot which term was the focus.

Are you saying that Uncle Tom is not a racist term?

Are you on a wind up?

 

[Corax]

If you can't grasp the difference between uncle tom and nigger as an insult you need your head checked.

Agreed. But...

It's like comparing the term cracker to nigger

It's really not.

 

[revol68]

Agreed. But...

It's really not.

It is in that uncle tom and cracker relate to those deemed to identify/gain from slavery/status quo.

Anyway the point was that trying to understand racism distinct from class is futile, as is perfectly illustrated by some peoples falling back onto terms like coconut and uncle tom to comprehend divisions of interest within "racial" groups.

 

[revol68]

Dp

 

[Corax]

It is in that uncle tom and cracker relate to those deemed to identify/gain from slavery/status quo.

As does coconut, no?

In practice anyway - IME coconut and uncle tom seem to be used interchangeably.

Anyway, the difference between 'uncle tom' and 'cracker' is to do with power (im)balances, and the people using the term.

 

[revol68]

As does coconut, no?

In practice anyway - IME coconut and uncle tom seem to be used interchangeably.

I dunno for me coconut seems to be more about much more general things than uncle tom. Uncle Tom is more political, more to do with climbing up the hierarchy whilst coconut or the Asian equivalent of "banana" seem more about cultural issues, how you dress etc

Coconut to me is much more expliticly racist.

 

[Corax]

I dunno for me coconut seems to be more about much more general things than uncle tom. Uncle Tom is more political, more to do with climbing up the hierarchy whilst coconut or the Asian equivalent of "banana" seem more about cultural issues, how you dress etc

Coconut to me is much more expliticly racist.

You could well be right. It would be interesting to see a spread of views on that really. I know that my experience of those terms being used is that they've been swapped around indiscriminately - but that's a pretty limited sample size so I guess I can't state with confidence that it's the most common understanding.

 

[Smyz]

Are you on a wind up?

No.

You tried to justify tolerating racist language.

Or you do not think Uncle Tom is a racist term.

Which is it?

 

[revol68]

No.

You tried to justify tolerating racist language.

Or you do not think Uncle Tom is a racist term.

Which is it?

Where have I tried to justify racist language?

I don't think uncle tom is necessarily racist, I don't think it is without problems but someone calling Obama an uncle tom isn't close to someone calling him a nigger.

Making such distinctions isn't justifying racist language.

 

[Corax]

someone calling Obama an uncle tom isn't close to someone calling him a nigger.

Agree.

I don't think uncle tom is necessarily racist

Disagree.

It's less overt maybe, and takes a small degree of thought - about attaching certain preconceptions and expectations to someone's skin colour - but I don't think either 'uncle tom' or 'coconut' are ever *not* racist.

ETA:

Where have I tried to justify racist language?

FWIW - I've not seen you do so.

 

[Smyz]

Where have I tried to justify racist language?

I don't think uncle tom is necessarily racist, I don't think it is without problems but someone calling Obama an uncle tom isn't close to someone calling him a nigger.

Making such distinctions isn't justifying racist language.

I said you tried to justify tolerating the use of racist language, which is what you did in the bolded bit below.

All depends, there's the term castle catholic in Ireland, though the equalisation of poverty has made that pretty redundant now. Like I said this shows that racism is always tied to class, once there are more and more black middle and upper class then I imagine terms like Uncle Tom will fade away, just as the Italians, Irish and Jews all went from being "racial" groups to becoming white in the US. Not sure what terms there were for members of those groups who assimilated into the middle and upper classes in those days but I'm sure there were equivalents to coconut, actually Ham on Rye is the jewish equivalent to coconut or uncle tom.

As for it going unchallenged, well I'm not going to have a go at anyone calling Rice an Uncle Tom, I don't think the ex US secretary of state needs my support, being the US secretary of state is much more demonstrative of privilege. Sure there are issues to be raised about why someone would expect some sort of racial solidarity of black or asian people that they don't off white people but that is a whole other issue regarding oppositional identities etc

eta actually as butcher's points out terms like uncle tom and coconut work in place of a class anyalsis or more accurately racialise class.

 

[Corax]

I said you tried to justify tolerating the use of racist language, which is what you did in the bolded bit below.

Interesting point. Maybe worth a thread of its own.

David Blunkett was/is a hugely influential and powerful figure. Would anyone on here be happy about someone abusing him as a 'cripple'? I doubt it.

 

[revol68]

Agree.

Disagree.

It's less overt maybe, and takes a small degree of thought - about attaching certain preconceptions and expectations to someone's skin colour - but I don't think either 'uncle tom' or 'coconut' are ever *not* racist.

ETA:

FWIW - I've not seen you do so.

Oh I see how uncle tom can hint at racialist expectations, but a black person using it to describe another black person who upholds racism isn't to my mind racist. Of course it's use is never as clean cut as that since modern day racism (as opposed to slavery and segregation) isn't cut as neatly across colour lines but rather is mediated through all sorts of cultural and class signfiers.

 

[revol68]

Interesting point. Maybe worth a thread of its own.

David Blunkett was/is a hugely influential and powerful figure. Would anyone on here be happy about someone abusing him as a 'cripple'? I doubt it.

If he was attacking disabled peoples conditions I'd take no issue with a disabled person calling him the equivalent of uncle tom.

 

[Corax]

Oh I see how uncle tom can hint at racialist expectations, but a black person using it to describe another black person who upholds racism isn't to my mind racist.

Why not? They're ascribing certain expectations based upon that person's skin colour - what they should/shouldn't do/say/believe/vote for/etc - as much as if the person using the term were white.

 

[revol68]

Why not? They're ascribing certain expectations based upon that person's skin colour - what they should/shouldn't do/say/believe/vote for/etc - as much as if the person using the term were white.

Because a black person suffering from discrimination based purely on their skin colour maybe has good reason to expect another person who has the same skin colour to show some solidarity rather than to actively partake in such discrimination.

Likewise I should expect my fellow workers to not side with management.

You are overlooking the fact that race wasn't simply a matter of skin colour and attitudes but an actually materially constituted exploitative relationship, that is being black was a class position.

 

[Numbers]

Do you know how stupid you look?

 

[Treacle Toes]

Because a black person suffering from discrimination based purely on their skin colour maybe has good reason to expect another person who has the same skin colour to show some solidarity rather than to actively partake in such discrimination.

What do you understand about reactions to racism, internalised racism and how that plays out in the way some Black people charaterise themselves and eachother? What do you understand about how some White people waffle on, flexing academic prowess and understanding, yet can still seek to justify the use of racialised terms.

And why are you only refering to Black people using these terms? Both the people I have seen on this site using the terms Uncle tom and coconut are White afaik.

Likewise I should expect my fellow workers to not side with management.

Why don't you refer to your fellow workers skin colour in that expectation?

You are overlooking the fact that race wasn't simply a matter of skin colour and attitudes but an actually materially constituted exploitative relationship, that is being black was a class position.

So then, why would you not challenge racialised insults regardless of who is throwing them about and for whatever reason?

 

[Smyz]

Because a black person suffering from discrimination based purely on their skin colour maybe has good reason to expect another person who has the same skin colour to show some solidarity rather than to actively partake in such discrimination.

Likewise I should expect my fellow workers to not side with management.

You are overlooking the fact that race wasn't simply a matter of skin colour and attitudes but an actually materially constituted exploitative relationship, that is being black was a class position.

If being black is a class position why should a working class black person expect a middle class black person to show any solidarity with them?

You seem to be arguing the opposite of your original position. If "Uncle Tom" is not a racist term then class analysis can't explain racism.

 

[Corax]

If he was attacking disabled peoples conditions I'd take no issue with a disabled person calling him the equivalent of uncle tom.

As I see it, that's far closer (though still not the *same* admittedly) to being the equivalent of a black person calling someone else a nigger. It has elements of reclamation to it, which aren't present with 'uncle tom'.

I don't know anything about your ethnicity tbh Revol, but personally it strikes me that I'm starting to chuck out opinions on things that are way outside of my remit as a privileged white male, so I'm probably going to butt out now.

 

[revol68]

Is it classist of me to imagine a common interest between workers? To not expect them to spout ruling class shite?

That I call a worker breaking a picket a scab but not a manager?

 

[Corax]

Because a black person suffering from discrimination based purely on their skin colour maybe has good reason to expect another person who has the same skin colour to show some solidarity rather than to actively partake in such discrimination.

Not convinced by this. Discrimination is not, and cannot be allowed to be, the sole preserve of the victims of that discrimination. Otherwise the discriminators will always win because they hold the power in the first place.

Equally, some who are discriminated against will have been persuaded/coerced/conditioned/brainwashed/whatever to sympathise with those that hold the power. That in itself is a product of the power structure, not a reason to kick them in the bollocks. Generally needs to be addressed through education (in a broad sense of the word), not abuse.

Likewise I should expect my fellow workers to not side with management.

Same applies as above. That doesn't preclude actions against scabs during pickets though - desperate times & desperate measures etc - but it should be the last resort not the first.

Getting way out of my depth now admittedly, despite having an opinion. Will really try to shut up now and read what others think instead.

 

[revol68]

Because in the context of where the term Uncle Tom came out of, black was a class position, you face brutal discrimination based on your skin colour. As such any black person who avoided such brutality and indeed actively supported it was especially hated by those who suffered it. To label this contempt racist is to engage in ahistorical moralising shite just as it is to draw comparison between cracker and nigger.

Oppressed groups have always had a special hatred for those "of their own" who crossed sides and upheld that oppression. As such uncle tom is simply a racialised equivalent to scab born in a time and place where race defined your class position as a slave.

 

[Numbers]

Not convinced by this. Discrimination is not, and cannot be allowed to be, the sole preserve of the victims of that discrimination. Otherwise the discriminators will always win because they hold the power in the first place.

Equally, some who are discriminated against will have been persuaded/coerced/conditioned/brainwashed/whatever to sympathise with those that hold the power. That in itself is a product of the power structure, not a reason to kick them in the bollocks. Generally needs to be addressed through education (in a broad sense of the word), not abuse.

Same applies as above. That doesn't preclude actions against scabs during pickets though - desperate times & desperate measures etc - but it should be the last resort not the first.

Getting way out of my depth now admittedly, despite having an opinion. Will really try to shut up now and read what others think instead.

Your opinions are far more worthy than his theory.

 

[Corax]

Is it classist of me to imagine a common interest between workers? To not expect them to spout ruling class shite?

That I call a worker breaking a picket a scab but not a manager?

Hadn't read then when I posted above, but think the reply covers it.

 

[Corax]

As such uncle tom is simply a racialised equivalent to scab born in a time and place where race defined your class position as a slave.

Fair post about the historical origins - but historical and current usage are not the same thing.

 

[Corax]

Shut up Corax!

 

[revol68]

Basically uncle tom was at least originally nothing to do with expected behaviours based on skin colour but rather tied to expected behaviours based on a shared "class position" (slavery) that was determined by race. As such it is a racist term only so much as the objective conditions that gave birth to it were racist.