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9/11 military tapes released - Pentagon lied to the 9/11 commission

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Backatcha Bandit said:
Jesus Christ. :rolleyes:

Here's the spec for a B767 equipped with a Honeywell Pegasus FMC.

A plane being sold in 2003 with no mention if any upgrades. That doc also says
FMC/FANS Honeywell pegasus 2002
so wasn't built until after 9/11. Yet somehow this is supposed to prove these were fitted at the time. :rolleyes:

from that article you get.

United Airlines, for example, has employed the equipment for a wide variety of purposes, including:

Testing avionics installations

So the FMC/FANS were installed in the simulator to test they would work on their aircraft. Seems a very sensible step to take before actually fitting them on a live aircraft.

The 'System' you are referring to there is FANS.
Which enables ATC to send ATC commands to the pilot where radio is unreliable.

The pitot tube communicates with the FMC/FCS, the FMC/FCS alters altitude (or rather it doesn't, as the pitot tube is the equivalent of a car's speedometer, not the altitude sensor, Mr. Avionics Expert).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitot-static_system Your talking utter bollox again.
A pitot-static system is an avionics component which directs impact pressure from a Pitot tube and static air pressure into the appropriate flight instruments. The system allows a pilot to know an aircraft's airspeed, Mach number, altitude, and altitude trend.


I just checked the wiki on FANS to make sure I wasn't about to make a twat of myself :))) and the first line reads "Future Air Navigation Systems (FANS) is a standard developed by the air transport industry to allow more aircraft to fit into a given volume of air space" - which seems a little at odds with your insistence that 'That report on the use of FANS says it's only for use in remote areas with little traffic'.

From that wiki article if you'd bothered to read more than the first sentance you get.
ATC radar is often absent over oceans and large deserts, so the first benefit is the increase of safety - decreasing the risk of midair collisions. Prior to the advent of FANS, pilots had to speak their location over voice links, typically HF radio. HF reaches beyond line of sight. Given the inaccuracy of inertial navigation systems and the noise present on HF links, ATC would insist on quite large separations between aircraft. Consequently a benefit of FANS has been decreased separations between aircraft
Oops.

I would have put loads of :rolleyes: in this post unfortunately the system doesn't allow enough of them.
 
New WTC Complex Photos Highlight Bizarre Building 7 Collapse

Buildings 5 and 6, closer to towers burned throughout but did not collapse

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | August 23 2006


Previously unseen photos provided to us by an annonymous rescue worker who was at ground zero on 9/11 highlight the implausible implosion of WTC Building 7 in comparison with buildings closer to the towers that sustained significantly more fire and debris damage yet did not collapse.

...

Pictures/rest of article
 
editor said:
New, relevant, credibly sourced, topical stories relating to 9/11 are welcome. People obsessively posting up the same shit from laughable loon sites, week after week are not.

I just presented evidence from Frank De Martini, who contradicts the claim of the towers not being designed to handle a fully-loaded airliner. As has already been pointed out, he was actually qualified to speak on this matter, but yet it just gets ignored, as it doesn't fit in with the official story.

Here is an interview with Leslie Robertson, the man who claimed the towers were only designed to withstand a slow moving airliner. However in a horizon programme about the towers, he says otherwise and actually backs up the claims of De Martini.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2001/worldtradecentertrans.shtml

NARRATOR: The Trade Center's designers tried to anticipate every possible disaster. The towers were the first skyscrapers ever built explicitly to survive the impact of a plane.

LESLIE ROBERTSON: We had designed the project for the impact of the, our largest aeroplane of its time, the, the Boeing 707. That is to take this jet aeroplane, run it into the building, destroy a lot of structure and still have it stand up.
 
WouldBe said:
Unless you are proposing that, as well as thermate and conventional explosives being fitted, some retarding mechanism was also installed such as parachutes or helium balloons then all that shows is that the floors were not as strong as you think.

Here is a detailed account, including multiple evidence of controlled demolition, which also explains why the pancake theory is fiction.

The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True by Dr. David Ray Griffin

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=GRI20060129&articleId=1846

Now if you and others attempting to ridicule on here, actually read the whole article and can refute even half of the evidence presented, then go ahead.
 
look again said:
Here is a detailed account, including multiple evidence of controlled demolition, which also explains why the pancake theory is fiction.

The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True by Dr. David Ray Griffin

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=GRI20060129&articleId=1846

Now if you and others attempting to ridicule on here, actually read the whole article and can refute even half of the evidence presented, then go ahead.
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detective-boy said:
I haven't seen any suggestion that dissenting voices are censored. Challenged, yes, but not censored. Posters are only banned when they get tedious and when they repeatedly fail to comply with the FAQ.

And anyway, what do you think the editor is running here? Some fucking public service? His site, his rules.

If you don't like it then fuck off and spout bilge to your nutter mates somewhere else.

Yeah, well open your eyes a bit more instead of looking at everything via your own affective filter.

What is editor running here? Certainly not a lovefest where everyone agrees with him. He at least can see that. Whereas you, with this post of yours, seems to think that if one doesn't like something they should fuck off. As usual your debating reduces itself to telling someone to fuck off. Thank god you've left your previous job.

His site, his rules eh?? Do you extend that to mainstream media? Owner's newspaper, owner's rules?

Bilge?? What are you talking about?

I tell you what copper, you pretend to those of us on this forum that you are in some kind of way objective and yet you tell me, with alternative views to your own, to fuck off. News for you, you're not objective. I'm just surprised you left your job. You still exert all the hallmarks of those who need to power over others.

You fuck off yerself, wanker.
 
editor said:
Every day when I wake up I thank the Lord I'm not fela.

The mirrors. THE MIRRORS!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, i hope you wake up and thank the lord that you're who you are. Then you'll be happy in life.

I wake up and always thank myself for the life i have.

I'm still surprised though that you should think of me every time you wake up. Are you obsessed mate? Do you see me when you look in the mirror?
 
detective-boy said:
Although overall I believe that this was a genuine attack - and that there was no deliberate "let it happen" scenario on any official level - there may be things to raise genuine concerns about competence / capability. I have not got time to research the whole thing myself and I get very, very pissed off when links are posted which allegedly say (or "prove") one thing only to find they don't.

Yet another poster wrapped up in the I mode. Who basically gives a fuck what you're pissed off about, and who gives a fuck what you have time to research or not. Even if you get 'very very' pissed off about it all.

It's not about personalities, it's about substance. And you have very little when you posturise yourself and tell the forum what you like or don't. It's irrelevant mate, and let your ego understand this. Or are you still living in the power trap??
 
fela fan said:
His site, his rules eh?? Do you extend that to mainstream media? Owner's newspaper, owner's rules?
So you are claiming the editors efforts running what is basically a hobby should have the same rules as the public media which has a well accepted role in public life.

You really are a total fucking moron. :rolleyes:
 
look again said:
Now if you and others attempting to ridicule on here, actually read the whole article and can refute even half of the evidence presented, then go ahead.
Piece of piss.

Straight Down
Except to get this effect that they refer to you need multiple layers of explosives, normally at intervals of several floors apart, depending on the building design and layout, never every single floor, waste of dems, time and money. Oh, damn, did we forget to mention this?
Almost Free-Fall Speed: <snip> However, the videos of the collapses show that the rubble falling inside the building’s profile falls at the same speed as the rubble outside[23] (Jones, 2006). As architect and physicist Dave Heller (2005) explains:
Do they really? I've watched these videos and it shows no such thing. The debris falls faster than the building does.

In [the method known as controlled demolition], each floor of a building is destroyed at just the moment the floor above is about to strike it.
There is no bounds to this stupidity, the author has never seen what the interior of a building rigged to blow looks like. You have to strip the insulation off the support beams, wire up the explosive charges, probably with a dual ring main... Anyways, if you're going to do this on every floor then you'd think someone would have noticed.

Total Collapse
If the goal is to destroy the building then you're not going to bother demolishing the bottom section, you'll rely on the thousands of tonnes of metal and concrete to do it for you.

Sliced Steel
Bwahahahaha! I've used cutting charges, i've set off RDX, i've had to carry the debris back to the truck afterwards, i've also seen that photo (a large steel I Beam standing vertically with a diagonal shearing effect clearly visible, no noticable heat induced discoloration, nor deformation from blast effects). That's not the work of either thermite (diagonal "cut" means it can't be) or shaped/cutting charges (you get deformation at the start of the cut as well as a much more ragged melted effect from the copper slug melting it's way through the beam, not to mention that the angle is completely wrong, you lose nearly all the force of the explosion if you angle the charge that way). Not to mention you'd need a custom made charge for that size of beam, normal procedure is to use several offset for something that big.

Pulverization of Concrete and Other Materials
Well gee wilbur, maybe it's the thousands of tonnes of falling concrete and steel that's crushing the stuff that's already beneath it?

Dust Clouds
Depends on how much explosives you're using, for the amount of dems you're talking about that's a suspiciously small amount of dust.

Horizontal Ejections
Oh it's true, but not with cutting charges, or rather not that way. If they'd strapped Anti tank blast landmines to the supports then it'd do that (having said that the distance they are being projected is too small), but only a complete idiot would do it that way.

Demolition Rings
Yeah, they're called ring mains, instead of having each charge on it's own bit of fuse you stick them all on one fuse, lay a line of det cord and use this to trigger the seperate charges. Of course the shockwave moves at around 6.8KPS and you wouldn't be able to see it moving, nor for the record would the explosions be red, that only happens in the movies. Nor would it explain why in the WTC 7 video these rings are at an angle, which would require you to pass the det cord through a floor.

Sounds Produced by Explosions
The most stupid point so far.

Molten Steel: An eleventh feature that would be expected only if explosives were used to slice the steel columns would be molten steel
RDX based explosives, (to the yanks that's C1-5 i belive, or to brits PE1-5) don't heat things up, they explode. You can touch the metal within minutes after a cutting charge has been used on it. Also i'd expect to see large amounts of concerntrated copper from the cutting charges.

Fucking arm chair sappers. :rolleyes:
 
Just because i hate this shit so much i think i'll continue pulling it to bits.

Explosions

Several individuals reported that they witnessed an explosion just before one of the towers collapsed. Battalion Chief John Sudnik said: “we heard . . . what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down” (NYT, Sudnick, p. 4).

Plastic explosives cannot be set off by fire. They just can't. You set fire to them and they burn giving off rather toxic gasses and a decent bit of heat (the old story about cooking your food with PE4). Then again detonators will, easily. In training you're taught to hold them like cigarettes so that your body heat can't cause them to cook off. If you've got the charges set on a ring main then any of the individual booster detonators would be at risk of cooking off and setting the entire floor off prematurely. But since these explosions we're hearing about didn't drop the tower i think it's safe to say that it didn't happen. (Oh and hearing a loud bang as several hundred tonnes of concrete hits the floor beneath it is akin to god clapping his hands, it will be rather loud)

If some of the charges had set off on their own before the rest then you're going to get structural imbalances in the system. Increasing the chances of the collapse happening off center. Since a single charge is likely to take it's neighbours with it even with a compromised ring main you're looking at a side of the tower being punched out. Causing the tower to fold along one side and the top to rotate off the stub. Didn't happen again.

Now, as for the cause of the explosions, have you ever heard what it sounds like when a fire extinguisher explodes?

PS, if anyone even mentions thermite then i'm going to really lose patience with them and start using nasty words.
 
look again said:
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True by Dr. David Ray Griffin

A theologian. :eek:

Are you going to provide 'evidence' from mediums next?


Mentions the very small amount of steel that was examined in the rubble showing no signs of heating.

It's quite possible to burn a house to the ground and still find briks with no trace of heating or burning. The only thing this proves is that not enough steel was examined.
 
Just in case anyone is still in doubt that backatch bandit hasn't got a clue what he's talking about then look here http://www.boeing.com/commercial/caft/cwg/ats_dl/MD10_ATS_SRO.pdf

Here are some of the commands available to FANS (which is an avdancement of the FCS)
1 DL#20 Request voice contact. p94
2 DL#27 Request weather deviation. p95
3 DL#49-54 When can we expect.... p97
4 DL#56 Mayday. p97
5 DL#59 Diverting to.... p97
6 DL#57 xxx remaining fuel and yyy remaining souls. p97
7 DL#67 We cannot accept.... p98

1. Perhaps the flight control system has telephone answering machine built in as well.

2. Why would a computer be bothered about the weather?

3. Perhaps the flight control system has an 'impatient personallity' chip built in as well.

5. So the flight computer can decide where it want's to go to.

6. While the avionics would know how much fuel was left I hadn't realised there were 'bums on seats' sensors to know how many passengers and crew were onboard.

7. Looks like the flight control system has a 'bolshy personality' chip as well.

From p24 of that document we get
The ATC datalink function enables the flight crew and ATS to interact using digital communication....... This functionallity used pre-defined ATS to pilot uplink and pilot to ATS downlink message element formats.

So the idea that this system can be used to automatically control an aircraft from the ground is absurd.
 
I'd like to say though - if the FBI released the videotapes they seized from the Pentagon crash site from both the Sheraton (?) Hotel and the petrol station, that would shut the conspiranoids the fuck up.

Begs the question why they haven't though.

And I believe WTC7 was demolished through controlled explosions, the way it collapsed into its own footprint and there was no sign of the fires or ruptured fuel depot exploding that the official account blames for the collapse.

Face it - 99 percent of these conspiraloon stories are complete bollocks - but that still leaves the 1 percent that needs looking at.

And as I've said before - I wouldn't put it past the Bush family to kill thousands of people to make a few billion dollars.
 
Oh for fucks sake.

Damage due to debris from the other towers fucked the structural integrity, overloading the other supports making the building crumple from one side to the other. That is pretty much what the NSIT report states. The bullshit about explosions is the work of jibbering idiots who haven't got the faintest idea how you do blow up a building. Reading the conspiraloon sites that ignore this damage is just as bad, fair and balanced as long as the photographs support our story, otherwise they're down the toilet. :rolleyes:
 
pk said:
And I believe WTC7 was demolished through controlled explosions, the way it collapsed into its own footprint and there was no sign of the fires or ruptured fuel depot exploding that the official account blames for the collapse.

And before the ravenous hoards leap in, it would actually be really easy to get thousands of pounds of explosives into a large office building. I'm not sure about placing them etc, because I don't know anything about demolishing buildings...

but I do know a lot about IT support - and that the average PC life is about 2 years, so if you have thousands of people working in a building, every couple of weeks you have another couple of pallets of computer boxes showing up. This usually happens after hours.

If people came in and there was a pile of monitor boxes stacked next to a lift, they'd think "oh that's a bit scruffy" and think nothing more about it.


As to whether I actually think that's what happened... how should I know? It's possible I suppose, but until something really conclusive turns up, this is (as has been pointed out) a highly circular conversation. Not that it's a conversation exactly, because people are too passionate and abusive about it.
 
Explosive wieght maybe, but tripple that figure (you don't count container weight, or the weight of the metal in the charges) then count the millions of man hours needed to rig the building and then come back and tell me it makes any sort of sense.

Just in case you're still haveing a brain failure don't forget that rigging a building means a hell of a lot of cabling and that you can't use electrical detonators because of the EMI risks involved (spontaneous detonation really fucks up your day). The physical requirements of siting the charges that limits placement would render it nearly impossible to conceal and that to get explosions that small you'd have to have baffles that no one could miss...
 
nick1181 said:
If people came in and there was a pile of monitor boxes stacked next to a lift, they'd think "oh that's a bit scruffy" and think nothing more about it.
But they wouldn't just be stacked up in odd corners. That's not how controlled demolition works.

They'd have to be placed in carefully calculated specific areas which may well include the current location of office worker's desks or maybe smack bang in the line for the canteen. Perhaps you wouldn't a great pile of wired up boxes next to the bread rolls, but I would.

And they'd have to be installed, primed and wired up. And that takes weeks - sometimes months - of planning and installation work.

Your daft notion that a huge building can be cleanly brought down as a result of people sneaking in piles of explosives and leaving them wherever they can get away with it just shows that you haven't the slightest clue what's involved.
 
Has it occurred to anyone that in the event of a Cold War invasion (considering the geopolitical climate when the construction of WTC took place) that the building might have been better off demolished than handed over to the Ruskies?

What I'm saying is this - it's not inconcievable to suggest that the series of explosive charges needed to bring the building down into its own footprint were incorporated in the original design.

Of course - one might say it is impossible to suggest that with a flick of a switch downtown one of the most prominent buildings in New York would collapse - never mind three of them - but I'd like to see some links pointing to exactly why WTC7 collapsed in the way it did, considering all the other buildings in the area sustained only minor structural damage.

And why FEMA took away the rubble so swiftly and ensured it was shipped abroad without the possibility of an independent investigation.

Conspiranoids talk a lot of bollocks, sure, but there is a strong smell of bullshit coming from the "official" explanation of many different events that took place on 9/11.
 
pk said:
Has it occurred to anyone that in the event of a Cold War invasion (considering the geopolitical climate when the construction of WTC took place) that the building might have been better off demolished than handed over to the Ruskies?

What I'm saying is this - it's not inconcievable to suggest that the series of explosive charges needed to bring the building down into its own footprint were incorporated in the original design.

Of course - one might say it is impossible to suggest that with a flick of a switch downtown one of the most prominent buildings in New York would collapse - never mind three of them - but I'd like to see some links pointing to exactly why WTC7 collapsed in the way it did, considering all the other buildings in the area sustained only minor structural damage.

And why FEMA took away the rubble so swiftly and ensured it was shipped abroad without the possibility of an independent investigation.

Conspiranoids talk a lot of bollocks, sure, but there is a strong smell of bullshit coming from the "official" explanation of many different events that took place on 9/11.
No.

No.

Fuck No.

If you wanted to go for a bit of scortched earth you'd blow the supports, collapse it over the nearby roads and throw thermite grenades into the computers and coms systems (this is the only use of thermite in military roles, to destroy electronics), not nessisarily in that order. Not to mention the jibbering idiocy that would make it a requirement, in the case of the ruskies landing the war would have been over. All in all i think that's the stupidest thing i've heard all day. But i'm waiting for look again to rebut my post above so there's still time.

You didn't read any of my post saying why it didn't look like it was demolished did you?
 
pk said:
What I'm saying is this - it's not inconcievable to suggest that the series of explosive charges needed to bring the building down into its own footprint were incorporated in the original design.
Err, the WTC wasn't built until 1985 - well past the peak of Cold War paranoia - and your suggestion that great chunks of Manhattan have been invisibly prewired to self-collapse in case of, err, a Russian invasion suggests that you've been on the wacky baccy, son.
pk said:
but I'd like to see some links pointing to exactly why WTC7 collapsed in the way it did, considering all the other buildings in the area sustained only minor structural damage.
What - again?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/1227842.html?page=5&c=y
http://www.thenewamerican.com/artman/publish/article_1253.shtml
http://www.911myths.com/html/wtc7___silverstein.html
http://www.loosechangeguide.com/LooseChangeGuide.html
 
Bob_the_lost said:
It's vaugely akin to saying that a car with GPS and cruise control can have it's speed reulated using via the DAB radio.

Worse than that. It would be a case of 'put your foot down' appearing on the LCD display of the radio. It's then upto the driver wether he does or not.

Channel 4 next monday 9pm there's a program on about the firemen who survived the collapse in stairwell B including talking to the actual firemen, one of who states 'we could hear the floors collapsing on top of each other, boom, boom, boom'. So there goes the reported explosions theory.
 
Surely the weeks of painstaking planning & preperation it apparently takes to officially demolish a building is at least party influenced by the need to do it in an regulated and safe manner, ensuring no one gets hurt?

Also a NWO-type conspiracy would have access to military technology, so any speculation based on the currently available commercial demolition/aviation , could easily be a decade out of date, experts or not.
 
Psychonaut said:
Surely the weeks of painstaking planning & preperation it apparently takes to officially demolish a building is at least party influenced by the need to do it in an regulated and safe manner, ensuring no one gets hurt?
If it's not done in a regulated and safe manner it's likely to go off at the wrong time. Or not at all. Or at half cock.

But if you've got an idea about how 'they' might wire up a huge building with tons of explosives in multiple locations and not a single employee/security guard/office manager/cleaner/lift attendent noticing or reporting anything even slightly unusual, I'm all ears.
 
Psychonaut said:
Surely the weeks of painstaking planning & preperation it apparently takes to officially demolish a building is at least party influenced by the need to do it in an regulated and safe manner, ensuring no one gets hurt?

Also a NWO-type conspiracy would have access to military technology, so any speculation based on the currently available commercial demolition/aviation , could easily be a decade out of date, experts or not.
You mean taking the time to do it so that it pancakes, the prime bit of evidence that the conspiraloons are using to support it?

Not to mention that it's wrong. It takes that long to set up because it's not an easy job. You've got to expose the I beams themselves, which means stripping off the insulation, fix the charges (several per beam) which isn't easy to do as those things are bloody heavy, wire the charges up to the ring main, fit the detonators, lay the ring main.

Oh, and since we're deep into the realms of stupidity here:

Hide the wires, reaply insulation over the top. Clear the debris, use NO electical detonators due to EMI dangers and then presumably redecorate the building to provide the cover you needed to shut the floor down for a week.

I'm talking about military explosives here. If this mystery boom powder was in such a late development phase that enough to rig every floor of the WTC7 building as well as 2/3 of the other 2 towers could be found it would have been introduced to service by now. It hasn't.
 
Psychonaut said:
access to military technology

Clarke's dictum "any sufficiently advanced techology is indistinguishable from magic" is about lay people's understanding; it does not imply that actual magic is available :)

Whatever explosive one might want to use for demolition, everything except the size of the charges remains the same, since the physics of the building remain unaltered: need for precise and awkward placement, requirements of sequencing and detcord, etc, etc.
 
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