30 years since Falklands War

[Pickman's model]

argentina non imperialist? wonder what paraguayans think of that

i think there's a difference between expansionist states and imperialist states. for example, i didn't see anyone make any fuss when uzbekistan arbitrarily moved its border with kazakhstan three miles north some years back. that's expansionist. if argentina thinks it has a claim to paraguay, that's expansionist. if argentina grabs madagascar, by contrast, that's imperialist.

 

[CyberRose]

I say let the people who live there decide. Same as Scotland, Northern Ireland, Yorkshire, etc. If they want to join another country, remain British or create their own new independent state, let them decide...

 

[binka]

if argentina thinks it has a claim to paraguay, that's expansionist. if argentina grabs madagascar, by contrast, that's imperialist.

expanionism good imperialism bad?

 

[Casually Red]

i think there's a difference between expansionist states and imperialist states. for example, i didn't see anyone make any fuss when uzbekistan arbitrarily moved its border with kazakhstan three miles north some years back. that's expansionist. if argentina thinks it has a claim to paraguay, that's expansionist. if argentina grabs madagascar, by contrast, that's imperialist.

theres also a difference between a state ,such as paraguay , which declares war on argentina unilaterally , invades and then gets the shit kicked out of it . Which is what actually happened .

How this can remotely be assumed to be an example of Argentinian imperialism is beyond me.

 

[likesfish]

Its a very odd place bit like a bit of dartmoor in the south atlantic.
but the Islanders have been live on it for over a 150years don't want to be Argentinean they are 300 miles from Argentina so not exactly off the coast.
Ireland is close to the UK and France maybe we should claim them in the un?

 

[binka]

How this can remotely be assumed to be an example of Argentinian imperialism is beyond me.

im just trying to get a feel for when you think its ok to annex someone elses land and when it isnt

 

[likesfish]

It was a half arsed attempt at making the junta look good.
the plan was invade declare victory make rude noise at the Brits in UN
figuring its 8000 miles away and are best buds the Yankees will protect us.
Unfortunately for the Junta Maggie didn't play that game and it all went to ratshit from then on.
The Peace plans were bollocks as The British wanted the Junta's troops off the islands and the Junta could'nt do that and stay in power.

 

[Casually Red]

Its a very odd place bit like a bit of dartmoor in the south atlantic.
but the Islanders have been live on it for over a 150years don't want to be Argentinean they are 300 miles from Argentina so not exactly off the coast.
Ireland is close to the UK and France maybe we should claim them in the un?

you do claim a fair size chunk of Ireland as it is , again on the spurious grounds of a bunch of constipated looking inbred wankers medieval devotion to that mad german woman you have on your anachronistic throne.

 

[likesfish]

yes well frankly their not coming over here and Dublin doesn't much care for them either
my plan to deport one lot to east Falkland and the other lot to west Falklands and bring back the islanders hit a slight snag.

 

[Mr Blob]

My understanding is that Galtieri attacked the islands in order to create something of a distraction from his own unpopularity. In this calculation he was right and he became popular for a while. He thought he had the support of America who saw his right wing rule as a bulwark against communism. He probably thought that the UK would just move out and accept the situation. Unfortunately for Galtieri Thatcher was also unpopular at the time and she saw the restoration of the islands as a patriotic cause that would enable her to emulate her hero Churchill and become popular. So the scene was set. America did not support our invasion and stayed away much to the disappointment of Thatcher.

Argentinia was entering an economic crisis and yes, Galtieri was trying to make himself popular. Maggie became the Iron Lady after winning

 

[laptop]

The fate of its indigenous was no different to the rest of Latin America, or indeed the entire American continent.

The fact that the whole of the Americas are occupied by settler states is certainly significant.

I have, however, not yet found any evidence either way on whether the "Falkland Islands" ever had a population before the Brits visited in 1690.

There was no-one home at that time.

 

[Mr Blob]

he supported it because he was a British politician , regardless of his particular stripe . Fidel Castro supported the argentine claim , and even offered to send ground troops to fight the British . The principle of anti colonialism and regional solidarity against it was of far greater importance. The vast majority of Latin Americas leftists supported , and still do , the argentine claim regardless of whos in power .

even American now favours the British talking to Argentina about future of islands. If Michael Foot didn't support war in 1982 he would have been ostracized by the nation as a loony

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was a teenager at school in 1982 when Argentina landed troops in Port Stanley and raised their national flag there. And Maggie Thatcher assembled a Task Force flotilla of ships to sail south and successfully recapture the barren islands with 1800 British citizens living on. It was a fond war for many Brits at home with national pride at stake, memories of colonial days when this country fought to protect the empire and the first modern missile war. Next year will be the 30th anniversary of the conflict over the disputed territory and Argentina still wants the 'Malvinas'

Do you have strong memories of the Falklands war and should the UK still keep the territory?

I remember blokes I know/knew getting sent there, and I remember worrying about them. All the pomp and circumstance? Just so much donkey-piss to please the public, and divert them from thinking about the lives (British and Argentine) lost.

The argument isn't even about that little blob of islands, it's about what those islands give their guardian power access to - the mineral rights in Antarctica and under the seabed in the territorial waters of the Falklands (as well as the fishery).

 

[laptop]

Anyway, in response to the OP, the main thing I recall was the rustle of atlases throughout the land as people asked "where the fuck are the Falklands?"

 

[likesfish]

The talk goes like this islanders do you fancy being argentininan
Islanders no and er HELL NO!
discussion over

 

[DotCommunist]

Myt uncle was doing a stretch at the time and he says it was the best entertainment ever. He had a big pull out map with markers on it and followed the war avidly on the radio.

Bit of a cunt sometime.

 

[likesfish]

prince William is off for a 6 month holiday in the Falklands hahaa Argentina strangely isn;t inviting him over for polo can;t imagine why

 

[Streathamite]

i think you should have accepted that argentina and not Britian has a rightful sovereign claim on territory off the argentinan coast , many thousands of miles from Britian in a different hemisphere . I think it would have made absolutely no difference to your lives whatsoever had this happened , and you might have something approaching a decent relationship with argentina today . Which you plainly dont and are unlikely ever to have .And given the vast majority of Latin America supports Argentina on this issue it laso colours your relationship with them too . You could well end up in another conflict down there . Those people arent going to let this go .

the people who live in the falklands today (and back then) know no other home - born there raised there etc. Why do you not believe sufficently in the principle of self-determination to make their wishes, their rights, the main issue, rather than Argentinian national ego? (and it is ego - all my extensive firsthand experience of that country, people and society has convinced me of that - they have no idea of what they'd actually do with the place). Don't thay have any rights?
Finally, do you realise that if your views had prevailed 30 years ago, it would have meant abandoning some 3,000 people to the tender mercies of a vicious, tyrannous regime which by then had killed c.30,000, tortured thousands more, which only invaded as a last desperate gambit to save a crumbling regime, and which would have been kept in power for at least a decade more if they'd managed to hang on to the Falklands?

 

[Streathamite]

Au contraire . i see it as a slap in the face to the entire Latin American continet . And most of them see it that way too .

no 'they' certainly don't (and yes, I do know my stuff here). Argentina and Argentinians are not terribly popular in the rest of the continent (they are seen as vain, conceited and arrogant) and many in other S American states were secretly quite pleased to see Argentina getting the global-political equivalent of a right kicking (ESPECIALLY the chileans). Most simply shrugged their shoulders.

 

[Streathamite]

how many indigineous falkland islanders are left?

There never were any in the first place, let alone any of hispanic descent.

 

[Streathamite]

no im not . Its got fuck all to do with their ancestors . Your just creating a strawman on this one .I couldnt care less what nationality they opt for and Im quite sure neither could most argentinians . Theres nothing anyone can do to stop Britian giving them full citizenship, not a thing . What I do object to though is that being used as an excuse for an imperialist country to half inch another countrys territory on the other side of the globe.

but no country had that great a claim to it, at the time Britain annexed it, and it's 300 miles off the argentine coast.

 

[laptop]

how many indigineous falkland islanders are left?​

There never were any in the first place, let alone any of hispanic descent.

As I linked above: there may have been at one time; but, if there were, they'd fucked off somewhere more habitable before the Europeans arrived.

 

[Streathamite]

And given the vast majority of Latin America supports Argentina on this issue it laso colours your relationship with them too .

substantiate this please

 

[likesfish]

think they give voice to support of Argentina's claim in the UN general assembly but talk is cheap actual action er not a lot.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/maproom/falkland/gettingitright.pdf
argues the Argentine claim pretty spurious at best

 

[bi0boy]

Finally, do you realise that if your views had prevailed 30 years ago, it would have meant abandoning some 3,000 people to the tender mercies of a fascist regime which by then had killed c.30,000, tortured thousands more, which only invaded as a last desperate gambit to save a crumbling regime, and which would have been kept in power for at least a decade more if they'd managed to hang on to the Falklands?

They could have come here.

 

[Streathamite]

They could have come here.

why should they? Their home's there?
Would you?

 

[bi0boy]

why should they? Their home's there?
Would you?

I would rather than be invaded by a regime I didn't like.

I certainly wouldn't expect a war on my behalf.

 

[eatmorecheese]

Hello Urban... Be gentle...

My earliest memories were of the invasion, as a kid in Buenos Aires. Dad was a UK diplomat; three days to pack and fuck off. My first day at school, aged 4, in San Isidro was devoted to Las Malvinas. All kids had the cause drummed into them as an article of faith, including me. The adjustment to life in Orpington that followed, in the fever of anti-Argie sentiment, was a tad difficult to say the least...

This won't go away any time soon, especially in the minds of the people of Argentina. The obsession is less about what Falklands/Malvinas is, but what it means in the context of Argentine identity and history.

The war was a horrendous tragedy that fucked up the lives of those left alive in its wake in both countries. The UK had spent years, from the early '60's, attempting some sort of settlement that would eventually mean effective transfer of sovereignty to Argentina. "Leaseback", "Condominium" and other initiatives I recall... all roundly vetoed by the Kelpers. Successive administrations found themselves in the position of trying to sell these deals to the Falklanders and failing.

Admiral Anaya felt that a swift capture of the islands would be a fait accompli. "Plan Goa" was its planning name (Argentine commanders studied the Indian capture of Goa from Portugal, a classic anti-imperialist move that barely caused a ruffle at the UN) and they believed world opinion would largely support them. It condemned many young, illiterate conscripts to death, PTSD and public shame.

Ultimately, the right to self-determination of the inhabitants, enshrined in the UN charter, fucked the Argentine case at the UN and allowed Reagan to support the UK (diplomatically and materially). This has had the end result of locking Britain (after the war ended) into defending the place in perpetuity regardless of the cost. Argentina want the Malvinas (and always will, it's not a subject you can discuss rationally without nationalist emotion taking over in Argentina) but I would hope that the methods of the fascist junta are now long gone and that diplomatic pressure is the only viable route they would choose...

This ain't over. My only hope is that armed conflict is not an option.

 

[silverfish]

So far they are hitting dry wells when drilling for the black stuff (so I've heard from a moaning client who's shares are yo yo ing)

May change the picture a bit if the FIs only natural resource is Penguin guanno

 

[Deareg]

In my view you might as well argue the angles and saxons robbed england off the ancient Britons. Or the Irish robbed half of scotland off the picts . On the American continent the Indians lost out big style to colonialism . Nations were created by colonialism , the clock cant be turned back in that regard .

What about Britain's claim to the 6 counties?