30 years since Falklands War

[CyberRose]

i couldnt give a toss about either the British or Irish governments . Northern Ireland is a totally artificially created entity . Only the Irish people as a whole- acting as a singular unit should be able to decide , without any foreign interference . Royalist national minorities shouldnt have a veto over national democracy just because the guns of the British army back them up .

And the Falklands?

<edit to add: all countries are artificially created entities at some point...)

 

[Casually Red]

The UK could threaten (and do) other stuff though. Like position a sub or two outside of Argentina's main ports and torpedo everything belonging ot that country that goes in or out, until they agree to leave the Falklands.

This could be kept up pretty much indefinitely.

Giles..

that would really depend on whether your superiors in washington permit you to declare war on the international shipping community or not . And this isnt 1982 . Freindly countries today such as Venezuela and Cuba with sophisticated weapons systems courtesy of Putin have the ability to address such threats .

 

[Casually Red]

And the Falklands?

<edit to add: all countries are artificially created entities at some point...)

well then would you similarly argue that in the event of scottish independence England should retain the right to partition scotland and create a little bantustan on its territory wherever they can find a pocket of loyalists large enough to carve out an enclave from that nations territory ?

The sovereignty of all nations and their right to territorial unity should be respected . That means accepting the will of all the people within that national territory , not a small minority you select for your own ends .

 

[likesfish]

They would only be kept there until the price of diesel went up again.

er no nuclear subs south Atlantic being deep and empty even the royal navy would have difficulty running into anything

re telly tubby land until the peace walls come down a transfer of sovereignty isn't even on the agenda forget about 50% plus one
The Dublin goverment is going to turn round and say er thanks but no thanks economy heavily reliant on the British state a divided community those problems need to be solved first.

 

[CyberRose]

well then would you similarly argue that in the event of scottish independence England should retain the right to partition scotland and create a little bantustan on its territory wherever they can find a pocket of loyalists large enough to carve out an enclave from that nations territory ?

The sovereignty of all nations and their right to territorial unity should be respected . That means accepting the will of all the people within that national territory , not a small minority you select for your own ends .

Like Kosovo?

 

[Casually Red]

Like Kosovo?

yes , an enclave that over half the worlds nations refuse to recognise , which even the EU is divided upon recognition , and even NATO countries themselves dont universally recognise as a sovereign entity . Most of the world still regards it as an integral part of serbian territory .

While your at it why not mention south ossetia, or Abkhazia ?

 

[CyberRose]

yes , an enclave that over half the worlds nations refuse to recognise , which even the EU is divided upon recognition , and even NATO countries themselves dont universally recognise as a sovereign entity . Most of the world still regards it as an integral part of serbian territory .

While your at it why not mention south ossetia, or Abkhazia ?

So what you're saying is despite the number of Catholics in Northern Ireland it should remain British?

 

[Casually Red]

no im saying that the only people who should decide Irelands future are the Irish people themselves acting as a uunit, free from foreign interference or minority vetoes over national democracy . Only then will we be free from this religious label bolloxology another country stamped onto our backs when it carved our country up .

 

[CyberRose]

no im saying that the only people who should decide Irelands future are the Irish people themselves acting as a uunit, free from foreign interference or minority vetoes over national democracy . Only then will we be free from this religious label bolloxology another country stamped onto our backs when it carved our country up .

The previous message was tongue in cheek. But will you not offer the same opportunity to the people who live in the Falklands?

What about the Welsh should they want independence? Wales, unlike Scotland or Ireland, has never been independent before so do they not get to decide on their own and instead have to have an English/Welsh referendum?

What about Israeli settlers in the West Bank? The Jews were there first, do you support their right to reclaim their land?

I suspect your answers will show you that the only common denominator is your hatred of Britain...

 

[Streathamite]

. Royalist national minorities shouldnt have a veto over national democracy

or to put another way "stuff the 1million+ ulster unionists, irrespective of how strongly they feel".
Ideologically impeccable, crap in practical and human terms

 

[likesfish]

Kosovo probably a mistake but letting Milosevic have a third bite of the lets do ethnic cleansing wasn't really a good idea
the idea that people who are quite safe in Dublin or London come up with a plan that at the moment spells disaster. Partition was a compromise and probably a mistake in the 20s reunification with all the problems that the 6 counties have at the moment would be a disaster

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="CyberRose, post: 1

The previous message was tongue in cheek. But will you not offer the same opportunity to the people who live in the Falklands?

why would I ? Its plainly obvious to me that Las Malvinas are rightfully the sovereign territory of Argentina . So the notion id afford a small minority of inbred anglophiles a veto over Aregntinian sovereign integrity is plainly absurd .

What about the Welsh should they want independence? Wales, unlike Scotland or Ireland, has never been independent before so do they not get to decide on their own and instead have to have an English/Welsh referendum?

I think the welsh have a very good argument for nationhood , and that tehy should persue it . But please address the issue i put to you . Does england have the right to disregard scottish democracy , scottish sovereignty and instead partition scotland in the event of its independence ?

What about Israeli settlers in the West Bank? The Jews were there first, do you support their right to reclaim their land?

who said they were first ? God ?

I suspect your answers will show you that the only common denominator is your hatred of Britain...

Please grow up ffs . I dont hate Britian , I hate British imperialism . Like I hate any other imperialism be it french , spanish or American . I wouldnt post on a British website if i hated Britian . Most of my favourite bands are British . I even have a soft spot for west ham .

Although I admit to being sometimes irked by a British trait that assumes if a foreigner disagrees with them its because they hate them deep down . It seems to even translate into referees decisions in interntonal championships and thelikes . But i suppose thats not that unusual from an insular island nation that used to have an empire. Therefore in the spirit of tolerance and openmindedness I make allowances for it

 

[DotCommunist]

anti-english sentiment is based on the actions of the Empire though. I remember an NI lad refusing to watch 'this is england' with me because he thought it would be jingoistic crap. It led to a tense conversation about how we the english working classes have been the first bum boy for tarquins dick and so have knowledge of the jackboot that stretches back a long way. He wasn't having it and said he would punch me on the nose if I put the shane meadows film on. In the interest of solidarity and an untouched nose I stuck on Pans Labyrinth instead

 

[Casually Red]

well i loved shane meadows film and identified with parts of it - parental outrage at getting the skinhead and being too small for proper Doc Marten 10 holes. Your chum sounds like a moron .

 

[CyberRose]

why would I ? Its plainly obvious to me that Las Malvinas are rightfully the sovereign territory of Argentina . So the notion id afford a small minority of inbred anglophiles a veto over Aregntinian sovereign integrity is plainly absurd .

I have no intention of having a debate over Falkland sovereignty as I'm sure it's been done to death on this thread and others. Why are you so desperate for Argentina to have the Falklands? The vast majority of people who live there (the only people that count) want to remain British so what's your problem (ok I know what your problem is, it's that they want to be British something which you despise them for)

I think the welsh have a very good argument for nationhood , and that tehy should persue it .

They've as good a case as the Falklanders' case for independence from Argentina wouldn't you say?

But please address the issue i put to you . Does england have the right to disregard scottish democracy , scottish sovereignty and instead partition scotland in the event of its independence ?

You have shown you have no regard for democracy so on this particular subject you can't play that card. In answer to your question then no, if Scotland declares independence "England" should respect that (but you need to get your head around what happened in the past has happened, and only what happens today can we influence)

who said they were first ? God ?

I don't believe in God so doubt it was him/her

Please grow up ffs . I dont hate Britian , I hate British imperialism . Like I hate any other imperialism be it french , spanish or American . I wouldnt post on a British website if i hated Britian . Most of my favourite bands are British . I even have a soft spot for west ham .

Although I admit to being sometimes irked by a British trait that assumes if a foreigner disagrees with them its because they hate them deep down . It seems to even translate into referees decisions in interntonal championships and thelikes . But i suppose thats not that unusual from an insular island nation that used to have an empire. Therefore in the spirit of tolerance and openmindedness I make allowances for it

"Inbred Anglophiles" is how you referred to every person on the Falklands. That's nothing to do with imperialism or British actions of the past, that's your prejudices mate. I suspect you have a similar level of contempt for anyone in Northern Ireland who wants to remain British, right?

 

[DotCommunist]

well i loved shane meadows film and identified with parts of it - parental outrage at getting the skinhead and being too small for proper Doc Marten 10 holes. Your chum sounds like a moron .

law student. QED

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="CyberRose,

I have no intention of having a debate over Falkland sovereignty as I'm sure it's been done to death on this thread and others. Why are you so desperate for Argentina to have the Falklands? The vast majority of people who live there (the only people that count) want to remain British so what's your problem (ok I know what your problem is, it's that they want to be British something which you despise them for)

nobody can stop them being british , absolutely nobody can stop Britian affording them citizenship if thats what Britian wants . Please be a bit more mature in how you approach this .

They've as good a case as the Falklanders' case for independence from Argentina wouldn't you say?

no theyve a case because wales constitutes an actual nation , as opposed to some protectorate of a failed empire thousands of miles way .

You have shown you have no regard for democracy so on this particular subject you can't play that card.

no i havent , ive insisted on democracy throughout . Its you arguing minorites can veto it if theyve the British army behind them .

In answer to your question then no, if Scotland declares independence "England" should respect that (but you need to get your head around what happened in the past has happened, and only what happens today can we influence)

that makes absolutely no sense . If its undemocratic to refuse to recognise scotalnds right to national democracy and full sovereign independence its equally undemocratic to refuse to recognise Irelands right to the same .

"Inbred Anglophiles" is how you referred to every person on the Falklands.

i think its a fair description .

That's nothing to do with imperialism or British actions of the past, that's your prejudices mate.

Im sorry but those people are indeed anglophiles and theyve been inbreeding for quite a long time now . Thats an actual fact and not a prejudice .

I suspect you have a similar level of contempt for anyone in Northern Ireland who wants to remain British, right?

Well in fairness to them they arent quite as inbred .

 

[CyberRose]

nobody can stop them being british , absolutely nobody can stop Britian affording them citizenship if thats what Britian wants . Please be a bit more mature in how you approach this .

You seem determined to impose Argentinian rule over them tho, for some reason...

no theyve a case because wales constitutes an actual nation , as opposed to some protectorate of a failed empire thousands of miles way .

The Falklanders would argue the same for themselves...

no i havent , ive insisted on democracy throughout . Its you arguing minorites can veto it if theyve the British army behind them .

No you haven't! You point blank refuse to accept the Falklanders' wishes...that's not democratic

that makes absolutely no sense . If its undemocratic to refuse to recognise scotalnds right to national democracy and full sovereign independence its equally undemocratic to refuse to recognise Irelands right to the same .

Eh? This thread is about the wishes of the people who live on the Falklands. If the Irish chose to reunify of course I would support that, I've already said.

i think its a fair description .

Im sorry but those people are indeed anglophiles and theyve been inbreeding for quite a long time now . Thats an actual fact and not a prejudice .

Well in fairness to them they arent quite as inbred .

You'd be in the EDL if you were English...

 

[Streathamite]

Its plainly obvious to me that Las Malvinas are rightfully the sovereign territory of Argentina .

Except however obvious it may be to you, it clearly isn't to most others here, and you simply haven't made your case here - not at all. So all we're left with is a sort of mega-simplistic anti-imperialism-by-numbers; Wolfie Smith come to roost on U75
Equally, the holes that have been blown in your argument concerning the historical and geographical weakness of the argentinian case, the situation as pertained in '82 (basically, you'd have abandoned them to a murderous military tyranny), and the basic rights of falklanders - you just haven't answered those points, beyond the tired 'inbred anglophiles' sneer - as if that made their lives of less value than yours.

 

[Streathamite]

Freindly countries today such as Venezuela and Cuba with sophisticated weapons systems courtesy of Putin have the ability to address such threats .

Are you still deluding youself over every other Latin american state rushing to Argentina's aid.
Yeah, rrright!

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="CyberRose, post: 10635082"

You seem determined to impose Argentinian rule over them tho, for some reason...

the reason being they live on argentinian territory

The Falklanders would argue the same for themselves...

no they wouldnt . They would not argue they constitute an actual seperate nation , and dont .

No you haven't! You point blank refuse to accept the Falklanders' wishes...that's not democratic

no its not undemocratic . As they live on rightfully argentinain territory they constitute a small minority within argentinian territory , and the wishes of the majority should prevail

Eh? This thread is about the wishes of the people who live on the Falklands. If the Irish chose to reunify of course I would support that, I've already said.

they cant choose to reunify because Britian stand over the right of a national minority in Ireland to veto national unity regardless of what the majority in Ireland want .

You'd be in the EDL if you were English...

really ? I think it would be a fairly safe bet the views of the EDL regarding Las Malvinas and indeed Ireland would be a hell of a lot closer to yours than mine .

 

[Nylock]

What about the Welsh should they want independence? Wales, unlike Scotland or Ireland, has never been independent before ...

Just because wales hasn't been a seperate political entity for the past 1000 years or so, that doesn't mean wales has never been an independent region/nation/whatever prior to this.

 

[Casually Red]

[quote="Streathamite, post: 10635107"

Except however obvious it may be to you, it clearly isn't to most others here,

well obviously most here are British , therefore i wouldnt expect them to contradict their national consensus on the issue . It would be a mistake to think the British view on the subject reflects the wider international view though .

and you simply haven't made your case here - not at all. So all we're left with is a sort of mega-simplistic anti-imperialism-by-numbers; Wolfie Smith come to roost on U75

i dont think the issue is all that complicated .

Equally, the holes that have been blown in your argument concerning the historical and geographical weakness of the argentinian case, the situation as pertained in '82 (basically, you'd have abandoned them to a murderous military tyranny), and the basic rights of falklanders - you just haven't answered those points, beyond the tired 'inbred anglophiles' sneer - as if that made their lives of less value than yours.

those people have been holed up on that island for generations . They are indeed inbred . Theyd be much better off intermixing with fresh genes on the argentinian mainland . Regardless at how appalled middle england is at the thought of some latin type interfering with a memsahib and their children having names with vowels on the end .

 

[CyberRose]

the reason being they live on argentinian territory

But that argument doesn't stand up when you compare it to your views on Northern Ireland which is British territory...

no they wouldnt . They would not argue they constitute an actual seperate nation , and dont .

Well they certainly don't argue that they're Argentinian!

no its not undemocratic . As they live on rightfully argentinain territory they constitute a small minority within argentinian territory , and the wishes of the majority should prevail

It's your (anti-British) opinion that they live on Argentinian territory, but that's irrelevant. As I said above, Northern Ireland is British territory, so are you arguing those that want reunification should just shut up and accept their lot? Or do you think the people that live there should have their say?

they cant choose to reunify because Britian stand over the right of a national minority in Ireland to veto national unity regardless of what the majority in Ireland want .

Well that's not my fault! You might make a similar argument with Scotland (depending how they want to work out the referendum there).

really ? I think it would be a fairly safe bet the views of the EDL regarding Las Malvinas and indeed Ireland would be a hell of a lot closer to yours than mine .

You've completely missed my opinions on Ireland (you assume because I'm English or British I must support British rule there - but that's just your ugly prejudices coming out again). As for the Falklands, my view is exactly the same as Ireland (or Scotland or anywhere else for that matter when it comes to this subject) - let the people who live there decide...

As for the EDL comment, that was because on this thread you appear to be the opposite side of the same coin...

 

[CyberRose]

Just because wales hasn't been a seperate political entity for the past 1000 years or so, that doesn't mean wales has never been an independent region/nation/whatever prior to this.

That comment was in response to casually red's legal arguments on sovereignty. I'm certainly not arguing against Wales (or anywhere) having their say on independence, quite the opposite. It's up to them, makes no difference to me either way

 

[Casually Red]

 

[dylanredefined]

Its not and never has been Argentinian territory though.Its 300 miles away filled with odd people ,and,according to one rumor more and more Chilean immigrants so if it ever decides to join with a Latin American country it will probably be Argentina's neighbour..
I say let them visit they will find it an odd place and probably decide the locals are welcomed to it.Their state has been lying to them
over the years.Its like the EDL demanding Calais back from the french.

 

[marty21]

I was 17, a friend of mine was in the navy and went to the Falklands,he came back as well When war broke out I was on a Geography field trip to the Outer Hebrides,and Falklands does sound a bit Scottish - there was brief confusion as to why the Argies had invaded an island of Scotland - yes we were Geography A Level students at the time no one really took any notice of the Falklands - I don't think people were that bothered about them belonging to the UK -

 

[Streathamite]

well obviously most here are British , therefore i wouldnt expect them to contradict their national consensus on the issue . It would be a mistake to think the British view on the subject reflects the wider international view though .

sorry, that is just insulting, ludicrous, in fact downright racist bollocks! What you've just said here is that being British biologically or genetically prevents me from being objective, having my own mind or seeing the value and truth of a good case. Submit 'irish' for 'British' and see how stupid that looks.
In fact, you are simply showing considerable intellectual cowardice here, in that you are ducking the fact that you have simply failed to make your case, or rather make a strong enough one.

i dont think the issue is all that complicated

given that your worldview seems to be derived from that of a cluth of hysterical, more right-on-than-thou swappies recruited at the last freshers week, I can't say I'm entirely surprised.
All I'm saying is a) make a proper case then, and b) answer the huge factual flaws pointed out in your argument, that I listed before in #319 and beforethat I and others have before. You haven't - not at all.

those people have been holed up on that island for generations . They are indeed inbred . Theyd be much better off intermixing with fresh genes on the argentinian mainland .

with respect, who are you to tell them how to live their lives, and to pronounce on what would be 'best for them'? If that's not a quasi-imperialistic attitude, I don't know what is!

Regardless at how appalled middle england is at the thought of some latin type interfering with a memsahib and their children having names with vowels on the end

utterly pathetic - more Wolfie Smith.
Presumably you thought my parents were spluttering into their G&Ts at the thought of my bro marrying a 'dago', as you so charmingly put it previously?

 

[Streathamite]

Casually Red, earlier today: