14th November Movement for Left Unity

[articul8]

If the ideas of some of the people in the LRC (ie supporting Isis) became public knowledge wouldn't it seriously damage the party though?

I don't think she does support ISIS

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think she does support ISIS

She supports ISIS like she supports the USSR, like she supports assad, like she supports labour.

 

[articul8]

simply asserting something without evidence doesn't make it any more convincing. Where specifically in what she wrote there does she defend, promote or support ISIS?

 

[butchersapron]

I don't think she does support ISIS

Why this baseless assertion?

 

[butchersapron]

simply asserting something without evidence doesn't make it any more convincing. Where specifically in what she wrote there does she defend, promote or support ISIS?

Here - explicitly and directly, in the very first thing i quoted - and not only in support of ISIS but also in support of assad:

ISIS will remain a difficult nut to crack as long as that corridor is not finalised.

So this nutjob, is she representative of your little labour grouping or meaningless. You have argued she is far from the worst in your group- if your tiny group is full of people like this and worse then what non earth are you playing at? Why don't you kick them out?

 

[articul8]

I have no grounds whatsoever for believing she does. It makes no sense to ask for evidence to disprove what you've no grounds for suspecting (see the later Wittgenstein )

 

[articul8]

Here - explicitly and directly, in the very first thing i quoted - and not only in support of ISIS but also in support of assad:

She refers to ISIS as a nut to be cracked - where is the support in that?

 

[butchersapron]

I have no grounds whatsoever for believing she does. It makes no sense to ask for evidence to disprove what you've no grounds for suspecting (see the later Wittgenstein )

Apart from the thing that she says in support of the outcome that ISIS want and the wider perspective that supports the same. Someone in your tiny grouo supports ISIS, you think there's nuttioer people in your little band yet you will do nothing. Looking real good.

 

[butchersapron]

She refers to ISIS as a nut to be cracked - where is the support in that?

You haven't read it have you you lazy prat. I think that just about sums it up. You've been defending something that you haven't bothered to read. The fucking dripping arrogance.

 

[articul8]

Apart from the thing that she says in support of the outcome that ISIS want and the wider perspective that supports the same. Someone in your tiny grouo supports ISIS, you think there's nuttioer people in your little band yet you will do nothing. Looking real good.

She is arguing, wrongly, in favour of Assad. How does that make her a supporter of ISIS? I mean, why make stuff up?

 

[butchersapron]

She is arguing, wrongly, in favour of Assad. How does that make her a supporter of ISIS? I mean, why make stuff up?

She is arguing that defending assad is the key thing right now and so the YPG beating ISIS would be a defeat in this key battle therefore the YPG have to lose therefore ISIS must win. It's quite simple to people who aren't hacks who have to make up stuff to defend their group.

 

[butchersapron]

I bet you really hoped man u lost last night but not to southampton.

 

[articul8]

She is arguing that defending assad is the key thing right now and so the YPG beating ISIS would be a defeat in this key battle therefore the YPG have to lose therefore ISIS must win. It's quite simple to people who aren't hacks who have to make up stuff to defend their group.

I'm quite prepared to admit their are people in the LRC whose ideas are bonkers, including her! It's just that it's not correct to say she is supporting ISIS, she isn't, she's arguing what she sees as imperialist support for the Kurds in Syria. This really isn't the same thing at all, although the implication in the immediate context of Kobane would be an ISIS victory.

 

[butchersapron]

I'm quite prepared to admit their are people in the LRC whose ideas are bonkers, including her! It's just that it's not correct to say she is supporting ISIS, she isn't, she's arguing what she sees as imperialist support for the Kurds in Syria. This really isn't the same thing at all, although the implication in the immediate context of Kobane would be an ISIS victory.

No,she is saying ISIS must win and their victory will be ours.

The immediate context eh? The thing that she wants to see happen that you argue she doesn't want to see happen.

What's it like to be in a small group where people argue this? One where they aren't the worst? Why don't you move to get her kicked out?

 

[articul8]

No,she is saying ISIS must win and their victory will be ours.
The immediate context eh? The thing that she wants to see happen that you argue she doesn't want to see happen.
What's it like to be in group where people argue this? One where they aren't the worst? Why don't you move to get her kicked out?

She is talking about the "national sovereignty" of Syria under Assad and the imperialist motivations for western intervention. She does not argue that it should be conquered and folded in to some Islamic caliphate as ISIS want. Therefore she is not "supporting ISIS" as you claim. She is however supporting a dictator who has previously been happy to cut deals with western imperialist powers. So she's not exactly on strong ground.

 

[butchersapron]

She is talking about the "national sovereignty" of Syria under Assad and the imperialist motivations for western intervention. She does not argue that it should be conquered and folded in to some Islamic caliphate as ISIS want. Therefore she is not "supporting ISIS" as you claim. She is however supporting a dictator who has previously been happy to cut deals with western imperialist powers. So she's not exactly on strong ground.

She arguing ISIS must beat the YPG. It'[s that simple. And it being that simple means she supports ISIS. Whether she's arguing she then wants someone else to beat them is irrelevant. She supports ISIS. She supports the military defeat of the YPG. She is in your group. Do something mr principles.

 

[articul8]

She is arguing that the YPG is a greater threat to Assad than is ISIS. That doesn't mean she supports ISIS. Frankly I'm not at all happy politically with what she IS arguing. But I'm not sure disagreeing with me should be an expellable offence.

 

[butchersapron]

She is arguing that the YPG is a greater threat to Assad than is ISIS. That doesn't mean she supports ISIS. Frankly I'm not at all happy politically with what she IS arguing. But I'm not sure disagreeing with me should be an expellable offence.

She is arguing full support for ISIS in their current campaign of murder slavery and extermination. She's not just disagreeing with you. And what sort of filthy group attracts people who think like this? She's in your group (and you say she's not even the worse). Take steps to get rid of her.

 

[butchersapron]

Nice party this eh - from emily 'it's just a pic of a house' thornberry to marie 'it's just a bit of slavery' Lynam. A broad church but no pew-room for principles.

 

[articul8]

She is arguing full support for ISIS in their current campaign of murder slavery and extermination.

Where does she say this, or anything like it?

 

[butchersapron]

Where does she say this, or anything like it?

In the piece i linked to and quoted. The one that you said yeah but she's only doing it in support of mass murderer assad about - as if that helped in any way.

 

[butchersapron]

Where does she say this, or anything like it?

But it wouldn't matter if she said it in terms that even a willfully blind bastard like you could see would it? Because all it amounts to is disagreeing with you.

 

[articul8]

In the piece i linked to and quoted. The one that you said yeah but she's only doing it in support of mass murderer assad about - as if that helped in any way.

She is absolutely and fundamentally wrong in what she is saying. But she is not directly supporting ISIS.

 

[articul8]

But it wouldn't matter if she said it in terms that even a willfully blind bastard like you could see would it? Because all it amounts to is disagreeing with you.

Acutally this does bear on debates in the LRC in the sense that political disagreement is not grounds for expulsion (as long as those beliefs are consistent with a socialist organisation). But wilfully misrepresenting what people you disagree with are arguing is something else.

 

[butchersapron]

She is absolutely and fundamentally wrong in what she is saying. But she is not directly supporting ISIS.

Yes she is. In the ways i have outlined above. And only someone committed to a defence of her as a proxy for defence of their own group regardless of political principle (and i ask again, what sort of group attracts this filth?) could pretend otherwise.

She does rather sound like you actually:

Comrades must not support the “courageous resistance of the Kurdish people against ISIS”. The courageous resistance must be here, against a Labour and Union apparatchik entirely enmeshed in the imperialist function of the country, preventing the planning of the economy for need.

 

[butchersapron]

Acutally this does bear on debates in the LRC in the sense that political disagreement is not grounds for expulsion (as long as those beliefs are consistent with a socialist organisation). But wilfully misrepresenting what people you disagree with are arguing is something else.

What about willfully pretending they didn't say it in order to not have to do anything at all?

 

[butchersapron]

Acutally this does bear on debates in the LRC in the sense that political disagreement is not grounds for expulsion (as long as those beliefs are consistent with a socialist organisation). But wilfully misrepresenting what people you disagree with are arguing is something else.

What part of wishing for an ISIS victory against the YPG in order to defend assad is consistent with a socialist organisation exactly? When did the LRC turn into the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party?

 

[articul8]

What part of wishing for an ISIS victory against the YPG in order to defend assad is consistent with a socialist organisation exactly? When did the LRC turn into the Arab Socialist Ba'ath Party?

I fundamentally disagree with her - it's part of an extremely crude understanding of anti-imperialism which is a hangover from Stalin. Insofar as these ideas are raised in the LRC they are overwhelmingly defeated. She doesn't speak for anyone.

 

[butchersapron]

I fundamentally disagree with her - it's part of an extremely crude understanding of anti-imperialism which is a hangover from Stalin. Insofar as these ideas are raised in the LRC they are overwhelmingly defeated. She doesn't speak for anyone.

You said she is free to think what she wants as long as it isn't against socialist organisation - what part of what she has argued is not against socialist organisation exactly? Don't just tell me you disagree with her - that's neither here nor there.

 

[butchersapron]

I fundamentally disagree with her - it's part of an extremely crude understanding of anti-imperialism which is a hangover from Stalin. Insofar as these ideas are raised in the LRC they are overwhelmingly defeated. She doesn't speak for anyone.

And to actually put this down to stalin is the really crude understanding here you great man of history buffoon.