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14th November Movement for Left Unity

articul8 said:
We - the LRC members in the CLP. Community campaigns can have no influence?
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Can you remember what you write a few secs ago - you wrote that you would have no extra influence outside the labour party (note the key thing - his groups influence and what extra it can grab). I agree. I said that you have none in the labour party.

Why weasel that politician style into me saying that "Community campaigns can have no influence"?
 
I said we would have no greater influence by leaving the party. You said we still have none, assuming that we cannot currently have influence via community campaigning, because we are in the Labour party. This is not true.
 
articul8 said:
I said we would have no greater influence by leaving the party. You said we still have none, assuming that we cannot currently have influence via community campaigning, because we are in the Labour party. This is not true.
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Community campaigns against labour that are labour led - potemkin villages. You have zero influence in the labour party - you literally mean nothing in the leadership calculations.
Can you tell me why this lead you to say that i believe that "Community campaigns can have no influence"?
 
You were implying we currently had no influence via our work in community campaigns. We do, and have a measure of influence at local level in the CLP. We don't have much influence nationally, no.
 
chilango said:
articul8 why don't you (and your fellow travellers) join UKIP?

You could have a very real chance of influence there, a very real chance of helping boot out Tories and Lib Dems.
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UKIP has no direct connection to the organised Labour movement, wasn't set up by workers with the aim of representing working class interests, and hasn't helped to bring about significant advances like the NHS, the extension of the welfare state and the national minimum wage, - amongst other things
 
articul8 said:
You were implying we currently had no influence via our work in community campaigns. We do, and have a measure of influence at local level in the CLP. We don't have much influence nationally, no.
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No, i was openly saying that within the labour party you have no influence. None. You're not even on the relevance radar. I didn't mention community campaigns beyond your parasiting on one in particular to argue that all that work doesn't matter - or if it matters, it's only because only labour member can win the argument in the labour party.

Your CLP eh? How you planning to scale that up to national level then?
 
articul8 said:
UKIP has no direct connection to the organised Labour movement, wasn't set up by workers with the aim of representing working class interests, and hasn't helped to bring about significant advances like the NHS, the extension of the welfare state and the national minimum wage, - amongst other things
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What's that got to do with your stated aims and strategy?
 
we are not parasiting on anything - mind you, the fact we have a certain influence on the GC might have something to do with the reason London regional office has stepped in to cancel all GC meetings for 6 months :facepalm:
 
articul8 said:
we are not parasiting on anything - mind you, the fact we have a certain influence on the GC might have something to do with the reason London regional office has stepped in to cancel all GC meetings for 6 months :facepalm:
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Oh no the GC and the regional office. How relevant to the class.
 
butchersapron said:
You are really so far into yet another bubble that you really don't know do you?
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they have some working class support - but the claim that exceeds that of Labour is not born out by council election results, and it won't be born out by General Election results either. Euro's are a different matter.
 
articul8 said:
they have some working class support - but the claim that exceeds that of Labour is not born out by council election results, and it won't be born out by General Election results either. Euro's are a different matter.
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Not borne out by council election results? Go on then disabuse me of the notion with facts and figures.
 
articul8 said:
your claim - you stand it up. More working class people are voting for UKIP than for Labour...
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No it was your claim that local election results show the lie to the claim - give me facts and figures. Only someone not following the last 6 months local election results could post so lazily.
 
articul8 said:
they have some working class support - but the claim that exceeds that of Labour is not born out by council election results, and it won't be born out by General Election results either. Euro's are a different matter.
Click to expand...

At present UKIP will be more influenced by w/c concerns, and more open to influence by w/c members than the LP will be. It will also be less in the pocket of capital.

This may well change.

But hardly reflects well on your beloved Party and your claims about its relationship with the class does it?
 
butchersapron said:
No it was your claim that local election results show the lie to the claim - give me facts and figures. Only someone not following the last 6 months local election results could post so lazily.
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There's no doubt that UKIP is picking up support in w/c areas. But your claim was that it exceeds the support for Labour in these areas. Big difference.

eg from last couple of weeks:
St Anne’s Ward, Sunderland MBC. Lab hold. Lab 945 (48.1%), UKIP 555 (28.2%)

Stone Ward, Dartford BC. Lab hold. Lab 426 (37.7%), UKIP 307 (27.2%)

Farley Ward, Luton UA. Lab hold. Lab 1232 (72.5%), UKIP 226 (13.3%,),

...
 
chilango said:
At present UKIP will be more influenced by w/c concerns, and more open to influence by w/c members than the LP will be. It will also be less in the pocket of capital.
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How do you think UKIP is funded? Who writes its policy? On what grounds do you believe it is "open to influence by w/c members"?
 
articul8 said:
There's no doubt that UKIP is picking up support in w/c areas. But your claim was that it exceeds the support for Labour in these areas. Big difference.

eg from last couple of weeks:
St Anne’s Ward, Sunderland MBC. Lab hold. Lab 945 (48.1%), UKIP 555 (28.2%)

Stone Ward, Dartford BC. Lab hold. Lab 426 (37.7%), UKIP 307 (27.2%)

Farley Ward, Luton UA. Lab hold. Lab 1232 (72.5%), UKIP 226 (13.3%,),

...
Click to expand...
You've run the class wand over the areas and the votes have you - let's see your results then please.
 
articul8 said:
How do you think UKIP is funded? Who writes its policy? On what grounds do you believe it is "open to influence by w/c members"?
Click to expand...

Oh I'm not claiming it's not ultimately a party of capital.

But, as a far less "institutionalised" Party, still small and disorganised in comparison, still somewhat an outsider, still taking shape really, it is, of course, far more open to influence than the Labour Party - which is an entrenched and sewn up instrument of capital.

It also has seen the gap in w/c representation and is making something of a grab for a bit of this in the short term at least.
 
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