14th November Movement for Left Unity

[SpineyNorman]

the local council leader certainly does - when we occupied the council chamber, forced the suspension of the full council meeting and got on the front page of the local rag protesting about charging council tax to JSA/ESA claimants

a) was that really the 'labour left'? (It wasn't was it? This is like the councilors who get a photo-opp claiming credit for what a proper local campaign has won.

b) have they abandoned that policy?

 

[articul8]

the guy who got carried out of the building was LRC. Unite community which supported it are affiliated to Labour. Yes there were others involved. But it will those of us in the party that will be making the case internally.

 

[articul8]

a) was that really the 'labour left'? (It wasn't was it? This is like the councilors who get a photo-opp claiming credit for what a proper local campaign has won.

b) have they abandoned that policy?

a) yes, but not exclusively so
b) they've extended the exemptions to take some categories out of paying council tax, but no we've not overturned it yet.

 

[butchersapron]

the guy who got carried out of the building was LRC. Unite community which supported it are affiliated to Labour. Yes there were others involved. But it will those of us in the party that will be making the case internally.

Because you're the only people in the party. How else would you expect people outside of the party to make their case internally? Look at this thieving arrogance - no one else counts, just the people who can make the case with the labour councillors internally (for stuff that your party were doing right?). Only they/you count. Disgusting shit.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Firstly, I *don't* think electoral politics is the be all and end all of left interventions, it most certainly isn't. Which is why as I've said I spend far more time on non-electoral political work than canavassing on the fucking #labourdoorstep

But equally electoral interventions are significant - it's significant when good left MPs are elected (a rare occurrence) and it's significant when the extra-Labour left performs credibly. What is not significant is where new formations present themselves as offering some credible challenge, but in reality only confirm their own spectacular irrelevance.

It's a bit early to say whether that will be true of LU - although being an electoral party that abstains from electoral interventions seems odd - but, being charitable, perhaps they are taking their time to think through a decent targeting strategy. THe best thing they could do would be to concentrate on targetting a small number of symbolic targets - like Ed Balls, Rachel Reeves and Tristram Hunt.

I have every respect for groups like the independent campaign running a grassroots community candidate in a neighbouring ward to me - all the best of luck to them. I will work with them to shift the position of the local Labour party irrespective of whether they choose to join the party or continue to act outside of it.

What makes you think that TUSC is presented as a "credible challenge" as opposed to an attempt to build a credible challenge and popularise the idea of standing anti-cuts candidates against Labour?

Do you think you could build a "credible challenge" purely by standing symbolically against a few safe seat shadow cabinet members?

 

[articul8]

outside of at best one of two examples (perhaps Coventry or Lewisham), the results will be uniformly dire. How will this help build a credible challenge?

 

[articul8]

Because you're the only people in the party. How else would you expect people outside of the party to make their case internally? Look at this thieving arrogance - no one else counts, just the people who can make the case with the labour councillors internally (for stuff that your party were doing right?). Only they/you count. Disgusting shit.

it's not to discout work outside the party - but it's to take up the fight on every possible front, including into the councillors' own backyards. They don't like it.

 

[SpackleFrog]

it's not to discout work outside the party - but it's to take up the fight on every possible front, including into the councillors' own backyards. They don't like it.

I completely agree - fight on every possible front. So if you fail to bring your "internal influence" to bear, will you threaten to stand against the Labour councillors in your area?

 

[butchersapron]

it's not to discout work outside the party - but it's to take up the fight on every possible front, including into the councillors' own backyards. They don't like it.

You just said to us all that people taking action of the labour party don't matter - that's you're prepared to parasite on their work and present it as a) yours b) only concerned with how it effects your party - anti-austerity actions that you are involved in just become yours and labours. You didn't mention that it was your own party doing these horrible things either did you?

 

[articul8]

I completely agree - fight on every possible front. So if you fail to bring your "internal influence" to bear, will you threaten to stand against the Labour councillors in your area?

Some TUSC candidates are standing, some independents, and a Green (who is a good left, ex-Big Flame). Those of us on the left in the party won't be actively campaigning against them.

 

[butchersapron]

Look, he's handing out blessings now - the 'good left'. ffs.

 

[articul8]

You just said to us all that people taking action of the labour party don't matter - that's you're prepared to parasite on their work and present it as a) yours b) only concerned with how it effects your party - anti-austerity actions that you are involved in just become yours and labours. You didn't mention that it was your own party doing these horrible things either did you?

it's not "parasiting" on anyone's work. It just happens that the Labour left is a key component of community activism where we are - not the whole of it is true. Nevertheless we play a leading role.

 

[butchersapron]

it's not "parasiting" on anyone's work. It just happens that the Labour left is a key component of community activism where we are - not the whole of it is true. Nevertheless we play a leading role.

How wonderful - you do the nasty stuff and you do the nice stuff. No need for anyone else at all really. Certainly not candidates. Back to responsibility really isn't it?

 

[SpackleFrog]

Some TUSC candidates are standing, some independents, and a Green (who is a good left, ex-Big Flame). Those of us on the left in the party won't be actively campaigning against them.

You won't campaign against them? How generous. Will you vote against them?

 

[articul8]

You won't campaign against them? How generous. Will you vote against them?

it is of course a secret ballot. We will vote as we see fit

 

[butchersapron]

Some TUSC candidates are standing, some independents, and a Green (who is a good left, ex-Big Flame). Those of us on the left in the party won't be actively campaigning against them.

Your party, those who really matter and decide things will be though. And so will you if you'e honest. You're doing it already - a year ahead of time.

 

[articul8]

Your party, those who really matter and decide things will be though. And so will you if you'e honest. You're doing it already - a year ahead of time.

I'm talking about at the local elections. Yes when it comes to the GE I won't be disguising my anger at the failure of the council to resist the cuts and the leadership's damaging commitment to continued austerity. But do I want to see the Lib Dems booted out, so I will give critical support to Labour.

 

[butchersapron]

Ooh his anger - and critical support. There is no such thing - there is just support.

 

[J Ed]

Are there really many Labour PPC candidates that are not affiliated to Progress in some way? Even people who aren't obvious Progress candidates receive some backing from them, it seems difficult to be a Labour MP and have no links to Progress.

 

[articul8]

all that would happen if we walked from Labour is that the council and the parliamentary candidate would feel less pressure from the left. What good would that do?

 

[articul8]

Are there really many Labour PPC candidates that are not affiliated to Progress in some way? Even people who aren't obvious Progress candidates receive some backing from them, it seems difficult to be a Labour MP and have no links to Progress.

There are. Progress try to get their own people selected, and ingratiate themselves with others selected as PPCs. But the other main "route" to selection is via the unions. People in this category are much less likely to have links to Progress.

 

[butchersapron]

all that would happen if we walked from Labour is that the council and the parliamentary candidate would feel less pressure from the left. What good would that do?

We? What fucking good do you do now btw?

 

[butchersapron]

all that would happen if we walked from Labour is that the council and the parliamentary candidate would feel less pressure from the left. What good would that do?

This, in itself, is an indication of just how ineffective and pointless you are isn't it? OOh help i'm being pressured from the left - they had a pic in the paper of something that was little to do with them. However can i recover - oh yeah, with the support of the vast majority of the party and the entire support of the leadership.

Note again, all revolves around labour and its internal politics - not the working class.

 

[articul8]

This, in itself, is an indication of just how ineffective and pointless you are isn't it?

not really, no. It's an indication of what the left can do in electoral terms at this point in time.

 

[articul8]

We? What fucking good do you do now btw?

"we" ie the local labour left - are starting to shift the centre of gravity in the CLP - eg. by deselecting the Blairite former council leader and her lickspittle who decided to shut down half the borough's libraries.

 

[butchersapron]

not really, no. It's an indication of what the left can do in electoral terms at this point in time.

We can't do anything, we mean nothing is not an indication that you're shit and can't do anything?

 

[butchersapron]

"we" ie the local labour left - are starting to shift the centre of gravity in the CLP - eg. by deselecting the Blairite former council leader and her lickspittle who decided to shut down half the borough's libraries.

Fucking hell, shaking up the CLP. What next - new plans for the WI?

 

[articul8]

I didn't say that - I said walking out of the LP wouldn't achieve any greater influence than we have already by virtue of campaigning in the community.

 

[butchersapron]

"we" ie the local labour left - are starting to shift the centre of gravity in the CLP - eg. by deselecting the Blairite former council leader and her lickspittle who decided to shut down half the borough's libraries.

All revolves around labour. All you can see is labour.

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't say that - I said walking out of the LP wouldn't achieve any greater influence than we have already by virtue of campaigning in the community.

Who is this we? You're right it wouldn't - the result would be the same either way - no influence.