dennisr
the acceptable face
And even thats pushing it.
14th November Movement for Left Unity
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
And even thats pushing it.
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
had, yes. back when the labour party was full of left-wingers.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Oh, now you're back to saying what you said then denying that you said are you? This is more frustrating than the actual content of your warmed up leftism - that you defend it in such a manner.
What about the relationship of the working class to the labour party in all this? Their alienation from and rejection of labour in all but the least challenging and easiest to do aspects?Their almost total lack of participation in your party? Does this mean anything at all to you or your left?
dennisr
the acceptable face
I've moved out of London now article8 - what surprises me - where I have moved too - is the vacum that exists in basic trade union organisation. This is an an area with a strong left/ labour movement history. There is no link left between the labour movement and the labour party - beyond the occasional glad-handing of labour politicians at historical/im memorium events (such as the opening of new rmt office previously sequestrated after lost seafarers dispute and 30 years after the miners strike events). On the ground that vacuam is beginning to be filled by local trade union activists. Guess what political background those re-founding activists have? - in effect we are running the trade councils by default through activists in PCS, RMT, NUT, Unite and UNISON - but we are already filling those previously moribund organisations with newer tu activists through practical activity - for example stopping the closure of 12 surestart centres alongside local parents (a small thing - but better than the nothing or 'vote for me in the future that the labour party career types occasionally pop up to offer those parents) - most of whom have either no political affiliation or their only experience is of ourselves providing the only backbone visible in a number of community and up-coming tu disputes and punching way above our weight to do so. That situation will grow as attacks on local government and basic social provision grows (not because i flogged someone a paper - because people feel they have no choice... and we are the only visible presence...). It will eventually be reflected electorally - and then your words will come and bite you on the bum...
This is my prediction - and i will raise a glass to that bum bitten time anyway when it arrives even if you do not have the humility to buy me a pint by way of an apology
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
The working class in large parts retains the folk memory of Labour as a vehicle for something worthwhile even as a they reject and resent the actions of New Labour politicians. (something that Loach registers). It's not as simple as a wholesale rejection - and it's also not true to speak of its "total lack of participation" - the problem is that the contribution of the trade union membership is mediated and controlled by the bureaucracy.
I don't want to paint a rosy picture of the left inside the party. But the fact that neither TUSC nor LU appear with the slightest credibility as an alternative is keeping people rooted to the spot.
dennisr
the acceptable face
its a bloody distant memory around here... and will lead to further electoral demoralisation and disorientation (for example in the form of farage's lot). All of which ignores what has to happen outside of increasingly irrelevant-to-ordinary-peoples-lives electoral politics.
Then what?
Then what?
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articul8
Dishonest sociopath
Ah, the old get out - "eventually" - like "at a certain point", "5, 10, 15 years..", ....
I'm not saying there will never be alternative to Labour. It's just that I see no sign of either TUSC or Left Unity becoming the basis of one.
Community activism and local trades councils do seem to be a far more suitable vehicle to work in than formal party circles. Maybe where I live is different, but there is a small core of local LP members who are very actively engaged with union and community struggles, as well as opposing most of what the Labour council and leadership says and does.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
You might not want to paint a rosy picture of the left in the party but you certainly do try to paint a false picture of their potential and their relationship with the working class. One that doesn't appear to have any understanding of the developments over the last decades. No, the working class don't retain that folk memory - the left that you are a part of do, and you are substituting this for the reality of the situation - and you go onto to an second substitution of the unions for the working class. Your picture is the one mediated by the bureaucracy and you paint a picture that i don't think anyone outside of that milieu would recognise as accurate today. But, of course, we now reach the point we always do where you tell me that it's the tusc being shit not labour being sit that's the problem and thereby ducking all the points about your outdated labourism. You can only see things through a party perspective now - the class only seems to figure when as some secondary (at best) thing.
dennisr
the acceptable face
As opposed to the old get out - "folk memory"?
It is already reflected in the "fuck em all vote".
Have the far-left had any major successes in the last 150 years in Britain?
dennisr
the acceptable face
Maybe it is because there is hardly anyone in the local labour party questioning the orders sent down to them from on high that we have virtually know activists represented by labour party members around here.
There is one labour councillor - he's presently discussing joining TUSC.
dennisr
the acceptable face
demoralising a twat like you?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
there is a fuck em all vote (especially at elections seens as inconsequential) but (and despite Ed Balls' best efforts to erode every last scrap of difference between the parties) at the next GE it will nevertheless be the case that
1) A Labour vote is the only way of getting rid of a venal and vicious Tory government (and their equally guilty LD sidekicks)
2) People will still see Labour as a party that would for eg. get rid of the Bedroom Tax, as opposed to being the party that introduced it.
If Labour are in power delivering austerity measures then we may have a different space opening up.
1) A Labour vote is the only way of getting rid of a venal and vicious Tory government (and their equally guilty LD sidekicks)
2) People will still see Labour as a party that would for eg. get rid of the Bedroom Tax, as opposed to being the party that introduced it.
If Labour are in power delivering austerity measures then we may have a different space opening up.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
If? What colour is the sky in your world?
And you lot say this before every single labour victory. Then after every singe defeat it's back to only labour blah blah but if blah blah
And you lot say this before every single labour victory. Then after every singe defeat it's back to only labour blah blah but if blah blah
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
Which is exactly what is going to happen. Now ask yourself this - who is attempting to prepare for that point and who is dicking about speculating?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
There's a real chance Miliband won't get in so it's not certain - hence "if"
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
catastrophic results being wonderful preparation...?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Lord, it gets even worse. So you recognise that a labour victory will bring in a labour-austerity govt. And you think this is what people should concentrate on achieving. I do not know what world you live in.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Your vacuity alongside your cynicism suggests a typical product of the socialist worker's party. Not defence more "cannot be arsed"
(hey, at least i gave you some attention)
dennisr
the acceptable face
as opposed to securing the catastrophic results for the working class of a labour 'victory' ?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
A Labour victory would be less catastrophic than a Tory victory. Being organised inside and outside the LP maximises the chances of limiting how bad it might be. Potential triggers for the left to split from Labour exist eg
1) the termination of the link (union votes at conference/NEC attacked, state funding)
2) Labour agreeing to form some kind of national government or grand coalition (even a coalition with the LDs could help to precipitate a split, but it wouldn't happen overnight)
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And you think this has anything at all to do with you and your left?
dennisr
the acceptable face
Would it. Really?
el-ahrairah
forward communism, forward gerbils!
it's the difference between being mugged at knifepoint by a laughing toff, and being mugged at knifepoint by the laughing toff's apologetic butler.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Let's get this straight then - you actively want and work towards something catastrophic for the working class to happen and you want everyone else to stop trying to stop the catastrophe and join in with you in making the catastrophe happen? I think we've got a strategist here folks.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I want to stop the catastrophe that is a) the ongoing austerity attack and b) the election of a Tory government committed to a further intenfication of planned austerity.
The priority has to be building the most effective movement against austerity - especially at a community and workplace level. But at the same time, insofar as it's possible to limit the Labour leadership's room for maneouvre and elect a government which is able to reverse some of the worst aspects of the ConDem coalition attacks this seems worth doing *in the absence of any meaningul alternative at an electoral level*.
It does *not* mean telling people to shut up and vote Labour.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
yes, marginally at least, and the more the left can resist the neoliberal direction of the leadership, the more of a difference it would make.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
the strategist said:
You haven't noticed that you don't have an army have you? What there was has deserted or mutinied and ai dare say some would quite like to frag a few of the would-be officers telling them they need to get back in line and march towards the sound of the guns. You do not matter to the people who run the labour party. Not even slightly.
SpackleFrog
Smash showy bell-bottom pants and sporty haircuts
I didn't say wonderful preparation - why can't you respond to anything honestly you little fuckwit?
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