14th November Movement for Left Unity

[Coolfonz]

LU isn't standing in any elections though is it?

As I understand it that is the main point of the party. From there I think LU says the EU elections are too soon - personally I'm not sure why but... - and after that they are going to field candidates. If you are correct and they say they aren't going to, I'm outta here/there...

One other not very encouraging thing about LU is their use of the internet. Two days after its conference and basically fuck all to show for it outside some vote results on their site.

 

[el-ahrairah]

from the weekends left unity mailing list emails, it looks like a few of lambeth's lu types aren't very happy with the idea of having lee jaspar shipped in for them.

 

[butchersapron]

As I understand it that is the main point of the party. From there I think LU says the EU elections are too soon - personally I'm not sure why but... - and after that they are going to field candidates. If you are correct and they say they aren't going to, I'm outta here/there...

They have a great big banner on the the site saying "coming soon to a ballot paper near you". But some of the membership seem to think this means they have decided not to stand in elections - whilst also thinking this decision doesn't apply to special people like Lee Jasper.

 

[Coolfonz]

Butchers - I'm not quite with you there but like i say, me personally i think there should be a party of the left that people can vote for. It's that basic. Yeah Lee Jasper - and i've never met him - seems to be a career weirdo who made up some shit about anarchists if i recall, and would likely not be a good choice for candidate. But again I don't really care about him, I'd just like to see a left party on a ballot paper in the UK in the way the FdG is in France, or the cats in Spain whose name i've forgot.

 

[SpackleFrog]

As I understand it that is the main point of the party. From there I think LU says the EU elections are too soon - personally I'm not sure why but... - and after that they are going to field candidates. If you are correct and they say they aren't going to, I'm outta here/there...

One other not very encouraging thing about LU is their use of the internet. Two days after its conference and basically fuck all to show for it outside some vote results on their site.

I know, but if they're not going to stand candidates now, then that puts it off until a general election. Then the options are 1) focus on council seats and get ignored because the GE is going on or 2) stand as many candidates in the GE as LU can afford (how many would that be exactly?) having never stood any LU candidates before and probably lose all said deposits. Which makes 3) put it off for another year suddenly quite attractive.

from the weekends left unity mailing list emails, it looks like a few of lambeth's lu types aren't very happy with the idea of having lee jaspar shipped in for them.

Not happy with Lee Jasper? But he has a local profile and an excellent record as an anti-racist Respect muppeteer. HOW CAN THIS BE?

 

[butchersapron]

Butchers - I'm not quite with you there but like i say, me personally i think there should be a party of the left that people can vote for. It's that basic. Yeah Lee Jasper - and i've never met him - seems to be a career weirdo who made up some shit about anarchists if i recall, and would likely not be a good choice for candidate. But again I don't really care about him, I'd just like to see a left party on a ballot paper in the UK in the way the FdG is in France, or the cats in Spain whose name i've forgot.

My point is that the party appears to be all over the shop as regards elections with the site clearly saying they will be standing in elections, with some people thinking they have decided against it and those same people who think you've agreed not to stand thinking they should be able to just ignore what they think is decided policy on the whims of a few individuals and substitute themselves for the party/branch.

 

[Coolfonz]

Butchers - Yes that wouldn't be good way to run a party I agree. I hope it turns out better than that.
Spackle - Personally I think LU should run at least one or two candidates in the Euros. Ken Loach for example, anyone else vaguely famous would be good There will be by-elections and then the `GE` and I take your points as valid, but I refer you to my earlier point about having a left party to vote for...

 

[SpackleFrog]

Butchers - Yes that wouldn't be good way to run a party I agree. I hope it turns out better than that.
Spackle - Personally I think LU should run at least one or two candidates in the Euros. Ken Loach for example, anyone else vaguely famous would be good There will be by-elections and then the `GE` and I take your points as valid, but I refer you to my earlier point about having a left party to vote for...

You don't count TUSC as that then?

 

[Coolfonz]

Sprackle - Yeah good for them, it's all gravy. They are running in London right? I mean in my eyes all these parties should merge. Everyone should merge and form one party. Would be nice if they could avoiding words like Left Trades Union Socialist when they do etc but whaddyagonnado...

 

[SpackleFrog]

Sprackle - Yeah good for them, it's all gravy. They are running in London right? I mean in my eyes all these parties should merge. Everyone should merge and form one party. Would be nice if they could avoiding words like Left Trades Union Socialist when they do etc but whaddyagonnado...

Aiming to stand 625 candidates nationally in the locals - biggest left of labour challenge since 1945

 

[Coolfonz]

Excellent news. I just say go Team LUTUSC . Seriously, all good.

 

[articul8]

Standing innumerable hopeless candidates and being an electoral party which doesn't contest elections seem equally absurd.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Standing innumerable hopeless candidates and being an electoral party which doesn't contest elections seem equally absurd.

Aye. Nowhere near as absurd as claiming to be a socialist working inside the Labour Party though, eh?

 

[articul8]

Aye. Nowhere near as absurd as claiming to be a socialist working inside the Labour Party though, eh?

If the groups to the left of Labour had shown even the merest hint of organisational competence and credibility maybe there wouldn't be such a fatalism towards having no alternative but to fight a losing battle inside Labour?

 

[butchersapron]

That would make them worthy of you would it?

 

[SpackleFrog]

If the groups to the left of Labour had shown even the merest hint of organisational competence and credibility maybe there wouldn't be such a fatalism towards having no alternative but to fight a losing battle inside Labour?

Maybe you just need to stop wasting your time on what you consider to be losing battles?

 

[chilango]

If the groups to the left of Labour had shown even the merest hint of organisational competence and credibility maybe there wouldn't be such a fatalism towards having no alternative but to fight a losing battle inside Labour?

If the groups making up the left of Labour had shown even the merest hint of organisational competence and credibility maybe there wouldn't be such a fatalism towards having no alternative but to fight a losing battle outside Labour?


See? This is easy.

 

[articul8]

The left of the Labour party had enough competence to exert pressure for the creation of the NHS, the extension of the welfare state, etc. etc - Ken Loach certainly seems to think so anyway.

 

[J Ed]

I don't know how people within Labour can carry the bags of people who, if they believe a word they say, they must despise. It must be soul destroying unless they are deluded to North Korean levels.

 

[J Ed]

The left of the Labour party had enough competence to exert pressure for the creation of the NHS, the extension of the welfare state, etc. etc - Ken Loach certainly seems to think so anyway.

Your argument for socialists working within the Labour Party is the makeup of the party during the Atlee government...

 

[articul8]

No, just that the left inside the party has not always been without influence. That's one reason why people aren't ready to bail out for projects which show absolutely no semblance of meaning anything to anyone.

 

[butchersapron]

No, just that the left inside the party has not always been without influence. That's one reason why people aren't ready to bail out for projects which show absolutely no semblance of meaning anything to anyone.

You literally just offered the argument that the creation of the welfare state 60 years ago is reason enough to stay in labour. Then two minutes later deny this is what you said. The argument is crass enough - but why do you have to twist so blatantly? Why say something then deny saying it?

 

[articul8]

I didn't say it was "reason enough" - I said people could reasonably point to evidence of the Labour left acting effectively.

 

[dennisr]

I said people could reasonably point to evidence of the Labour left acting effectively.

Lets say in the last 20 years then - any major successes within this timeframe?

 

[butchersapron]

I didn't say it was "reason enough" - I said people could reasonably point to evidence of the Labour left acting effectively.

Yes, 60 years ago (and you ignore the utterly different conditions that existed then - in terms of the class struggle, in terms of the political representation of the working class, in terms of the needs of capital and the effects of competition and so on- this is why the point is so crass) but then immediately say no the crowning glory of my parties tradition, the thing i'm pointing to as an example of success, i don't really mean that at all. Why on earth can you just write straightforwardly instead of this politicians weaseling all the bloody time? Why must you always put something forward then retreat from it, deny you said, circle it around with defensive tricks?

 

[dennisr]

anything at all in this timeframe?

 

[dennisr]

one thing - just one single thing?

 

[articul8]

anything at all in this timeframe?

Very little since 1981 in all honesty. NMW and Sure Start were both good ideas (although limited). There's a case that the left's opposition to Iraq war helped prevent them from supporting invasion of Syria.

 

[butchersapron]

You're claiming that now are you?

Shameless.

 

[articul8]

But I'm not making some confident prediction of left advances within the Labour party. Far from it. It's just that the pretty shambolic state of the left outside means the vestigial memories of a bygone age are enough to keep people where they are.