dennisr
the acceptable face
desperate is what you are doing here to try and legitimise your own position.
14th November Movement for Left Unity
- Thread starter chilango
- Start date
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
No, I'm realistic about the limitations and prospects of work within the LP. But I don't see any alternative on the electoral level now, and am pretty unimpressed by TUSC's apparent desire to fall flat on its face (however well motivated it might be). I won't taken any satisfaction in being proved right. I will be exasperated.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
God, if you mistake this fantasy world that you've constructed for being pretty realistic I don't want to see what you come up with when you cut loose. You are so cut off its laughable.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
but you won't be proved right, you'll be proven a wanker's wanker time and time and time and time again.
it's often said principled people left the cp after hungary '56. you've had your hungary moments and you fluffed them all. when the labour government bombed yugoslavia, precipitating the kosovo crisis. when the labour government went into afghanistan. when the labour government went into iraq. not to mention all the shit things they did at home. for example, you were doubtless up in arms at the student fees in 2010. but who introduced tuition fees? was it not the er labour party?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
And, oddly, he claims political descent from those who left in 56.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yet he's been an ardent supporter of the party which brought in great limits on protest, such as the prohibition on demonstrating near parliament - more severe than the auld sessional orders. he's what auld tankies refer to as a right-wing shit
If you want to hang out with/vote for the Bombers then fine. Hang out with them. But why waste your time on this thread telling other people they can't do X or Y? Is that one of your things? Telling people you don't know what they can/can't do? Bit creepy-weird.
J Ed
Follow Back Pro Expropriation
Well the Labour Representation Committee has groups in it like the New Communist Party and Socialist Action which still venerate capitalist China and Russia. Has anyone considered that they might just really, really like authority?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
he makes out he's a good old labour sort of guy. but he's just a run of the mill twat.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
As a matter of fact I left the party and backed the Socialist Alliance in 2000 - and wasn't in the party at the time of invasion of Afghanistan/Iraq - both of which I opposed.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
which makes it worse that you see nothing wrong with being a member of the party now, after everything they've done. when did you rejoin the party?
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Yes and they suffer from a form of Stockholm syndrome. A dozen MPs is not an impressive number given Labour's total number of MPs. In fact,that just shows how marginalised the Left is within Labour. Kinnock witch-hunted most of the socialists out of the party and those left-wing MPs who were left behind are ineffective.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
When? Would be 2007 I think - when Blair left - to support John Mc in his leadership bid.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Well done. (Got a job out of it as well didn't you? And look at what it's helped do to you). In what way does joining in 2007 mean that you didn't join the party that had done all these poisonous things?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
compared to TUSC?
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
There has never a time in Labour's history when it was possible to endorse the overall character of its politics. Just as previous entryists have joined to try to advance the case for an entirely different politics altogether, there is still a case for it.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
No, on their own terms.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yes. but you're not making it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so you thought that your politics were best served by trying to do something with the labour party which isn't even left.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Such sense of responsibility. All the good things (where's your list) = me, all the bad things =you (and anyway i joined after they happened and my role in the continuing existence of the party that wil allow them to do further bad things at a future date is irrelevant). Just pathetic politicians weaseling. You now mock the entryists for their failure and where its led them whilst pretending that your even more pathetic isolated entryism is actually going to be really different this time - despite the objective conditions it takes place in being incomparably worse and the subjective political composition of the party and wider society being even less welcoming to such nonsense. You are a fantasist as much any workers power cadre droning on about workers defence squads.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
This is marvelous stuff, you're now arguing that we should put out shoulders to the wheel of an ineffective group of labour MPS because they will bring catastrophic conditions for the working class. Don't you think things through before replying? I would expect a grandmaster of strategy like yourself to think a few steps ahead at the very least?
Btw, why 10 years after you argued that the handful of left labour mps were mere cover for the actions of the leadership - powerless window dressing - what has changed to convince you that the opposite is now the case?
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
All you're doing a8 ,is regurgitating the arguments that you have read that others made at various times in the labour parties history - most obviously in the Bevan/Gaitskill confrontations and the non-labour lefts reasons for entryism at that point, and the same debates around Bennism of the late 70s to mid-80s. These were living issues at that point due to a number of factors that no longer apply (mass working class membership and participation most obviously). Which is why regurgitation is all you have left - and you're too busy doing that to notice that most of the actors have left this particular stage. Come into the modern world.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
I "mock the entryists for their failure" - where?! As for the "fantasist" stuff I've acknowledged that prospects for success are very limited in the short term. I spend very little time campaigning with/for Labour, and far more time campaigning with local anti-cuts group, community housing campaign, and fast food workers campaign.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What was my full sentence? Stop being a politician weasel.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
The left-wing prisoners of the former party of Labour are delusional. I think TUSC knows where it stands.
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
a significant % of the w/c will STILL (in 2015!) look to the election of a Labour government as the only way of kicking out the Tories/LDs and punishing them for the austerity they have inflicted (even if they recognise that what Labour is offering is a slightly ameliorated version of much the same thing).
But even those, possibly especially those, really pissed off with what Labour is offering are alienated *precisely because* they are judging it in relation to the efforts of the 45 government - like Loach. So they have to answer how it's more possible for a new formation to begin from scratch (without the institutional support of a major section organised Labour movement, the financial/political advantages that provides, and the degree of established public profile it enjoys) and make what is essentially a re-formed Labour party work where the orginal hasn't....
articul8
Dishonest sociopath
TUSC knows it's utterly fucked? Well that's some kind of insight I guess
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