Transgender is it just me that is totally perplexed?

[bimble]

I think there's a subtle difference from heteronormativity but beyond me to figure it out. But it's a term that's been in use for quite some time now and I've never heard anyone criticise it for appropriation.

Yeah, well I am then. The word sexism means something, and it still exists, it means discriminations by sex. As in keeping people with vaginas in their place. The scandal of the week with that men-only charity fundraising do with everyone groping the 'hostesses': Why didn't the people working there just identify as non binary unicorns they'd have been fine.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

That open letter to the Brit TERFs now at well over a thousand signatures.

I see that the Women’s Place speaking tour hasn’t just had Beatrix Campbell on its platform, it’s also had a (male) academic who contributes to Spiked and wants to see alcoholism reclassified as a moral failing on its platform. There are no allies this crowd won’t make to get at trans people.

 

[bimble]

it appears to me that you are grouping every trans persons into being a cultist. Which ain't right is it?

No i'm not doing that. I'm just saying seems to me there's a cult-like thing going on. With loads of dissenters, trans and not trans.

 

[Pickman's model]

In the early days of Christianity, there were the equivalent of just a handful of shouty people on the internet, except they wore sandals and didn't go online they wrote on hide and called meetings. Apostates have been chopped up ever since. What is your point? There is an extreme and new ideological paradigm being promoted, about gender identity being a state of mind/ inner truth beyond explaining and sex being nothing. You said its not a cult, please explain why not, is it because its already too big?

Cults can be very big, bimble. It's not you go loony, cult, religion. What about the moonies? Or mormons? Or scientologists? Loads of them! Not to mention the auld mystery religions/cults, e.g. isis, mithras

 

[Pickman's model]

No i'm not doing that. I'm just saying seems to me there's a cult-like thing going on. With loads of dissenters, trans and not trans.

Yeh. And what's the point of your just saying?

 

[bimble]

Cults can be very big, bimble. It's not you go loony, cult, religion. What about the moonies? Or mormons? Or scientologists? Loads of them! Not to mention the auld mystery religions/cults, e.g. isis, mithras

Well quite. Its not a cult because the Labour Party are into it? Teaboy brought up the cult thing, saying it's definitely not that.

 

[elbows]

No i'm not doing that. I'm just saying seems to me there's a cult-like thing going on. With loads of dissenters, trans and not trans.

It's just more polarising focus on the extremes though. Because exactly the same cult claims could be directed towards certain rad-fem stances that see people labelled traitors if you dont buy into the whole of their thing.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Yeah i wasn't here back then.

At least we can agree on one thing.

 

[comrade spurski]

And it's my right to debate and discuss the issues raised by transactivists campaigns, if you don't want to engage with that, fine, but just shouting 'transphobe' and running away is pointless imo.



It's complex because to be 'non-transphobic' the demand appears to be that everyone else meekly accepts that the entire parameters of the debate be set by one side. So if you don't accept that, then by definition you're a transphobe.

Hating, shunning, trying to fuck up transpeople = transphobia for sure. Bullying misgendering, etc etc likewise. I don't do any of those things and I'd happily bet I've had far more interaction with transpeople than most people, they have been in my life since the 1980s; but according to many on this thread, I'm a transphobe. If I am then the term is just a political slur, it's meaningless.

What is "bullying misgendering" ?
Excuse my ignorance but I have never heard the term before and am interested.
Cheers

 

[bimble]

At least we can agree on one thing.

I don't want to agree with you i want you to answer my questions. You saw them I tagged you.

 

[Teaboy]

Well quite. Its not a cult because the Labour Party are into it? Teaboy brought up the cult thing, saying it's definitely not that.

Eh?

You're going on about Alice in Wonderland, Unicorns and saying I brought it up? I only responded to your post saying it was a cult. Its up page you can still see it?

How odd.

Ah an edit.

 

[bimble]

Eh?

You're going on about Alice in Wonderland, Unicorns and saying I brought it up? I only responded to your post saying it was a cult. Its up page you can still see it?

How odd.

Ah an edit.

You've just backtracked then, saying some shouty people are in a cult but some trans folk just want to get on with their lives. There we can agree.

 

[Vintage Paw]

Hey, do you think trans women who pass experience sexism?

Maybe we can all work together to crush it?

 

[Teaboy]

You've just backtracked then, saying some shouty people are in a cult but some trans folk just want to get on with their lives. There we can agree.

What are you on about now?

Seriously. Everyone can see the exchange. You seem OK on other threads. I don't know what war you think your fighting here but its got weird.

 

[bimble]

Hey, do you think trans women who pass experience sexism?

Maybe we can all work together to crush it?

So physical appearance is key then? Or social experience of being hassled and subjugated by men?

What are you on about now?
Seriously. Everyone can see the exchange. You seem OK on other threads. I don't know what war you think your fighting here but its got weird.

Teaboy I'm not following you. You said there is nothing cult-like about this movement that we are discussing on this thread. I think that's what you said? I asked you to explain what you think the word cult signifies. You didn't, so I said why I think it bears the hallmarks of cult-like-ness, without all trans people being somehow classed as in that cult.

 

[Pickman's model]

What are you on about now?

Seriously. Everyone can see the exchange. You seem OK on other threads. I don't know what war you think your fighting here but its got weird.

Yeh, it's a bimble brainstorm, a common phenomenon

 

[Thimble Queen]

No, not really. It's because I have used that word (and 'transsexual') for decades and I'm not allowing someone else's politics to be imposed on my language.

I'd hope anyone who claimed to be a 'trans ally' would understand this.

People have been doing all sorts of things for decades it doesn't make them right. Seriously your debating skills are going down the pan.

I'm not sure what you think you know about me. I'm not an 'ally'.

 

[Pickman's model]

People have been doing all sorts of things for decades it doesn't make them right. Seriously your debating skills are going down the pan.

I'm not sure what you think you know about me. I'm not an 'ally'.

You can't trust a word mendacious miranda says. She'd tell you it was Friday if she thought she might gain something by it

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I don't want to agree with you i want you to answer my questions. You saw them I tagged you.

As I’ve already explained my view of the social impact of the largest movement of gender non conformism in nearly five decades more than once, and given that smokedout has just explained his view of the same process at length, I can only conclude that you aren’t at all interested in any answers to your rhetorical questions. If I answer them yet again you will only wheel out the same talking points again in a few days, you tedious bigot.

 

[Vintage Paw]

So physical appearance is key then?

The argument seems to go that sexism can only be experienced by cis women because of their genitalia. When I experience sexism people aren't generally taking a look in my pants first. So it follows that the perception people have of me as being and living as a woman is what causes me to be part of the group that experiences sexism. If a trans woman lives as a woman and experiences life as a woman she's going to experience sexism.

Anyway, quite apart from that, patriarchy affects everyone. It's responsible for shit (cis and trans) women go through, shit (cis and trans) men go through... I think it's kind of cool when we all bunch together to fight.

 

[bimble]

People have been doing all sorts of things for decades it doesn't make them right. Seriously your debating skills are going down the pan.

I'm not sure what you think you know about me. I'm not an 'ally'.

Your debating skills are basically 'oh look they said the word 'he', snigger and point and do a thumbs-up smiley. What have you got to contribute apart from policing other peoples use of words?

As I’ve already explained my view of the social impact of the largest movement of gender non conformism in nearly five decades more than once, and given that smokedout has just explained his view of the same process at length, I can only conclude that you aren’t at all interested in any answers to your rhetorical questions. If I answer them yet again you will only wheel out the same talking points again in a few days, you tedious bigot.

ok. Your answer is 'you are a bigot'. Cool.
So people changing their bodies to better match their gender identities is totally smashing the gender system according to you, as are appeals to regressive science about female brains.

 

[Vintage Paw]

So people changing their bodies to better match their gender identities is totaly smashing the gender system according to you, as are appeals to regressive science about female brains.

You've been given a couple of really thoughtful and measured posts in reply to this, and you're demonstrating time and again you're not prepared to engage with what's said in good faith. I think it's a shame.

 

[Pickman's model]

You've been given a couple of really thoughtful and measured posts in reply to this, and you're demonstrating time and again you're not prepared to engage with what's said in good faith. I think it's a shame.

It's a shame but also how bimble has reacted on threads on all manner of subjects since she joined.

 

[bimble]

You've been given a couple of really thoughtful and measured posts in reply to this, and you're demonstrating time and again you're not prepared to engage with what's said in good faith. I think it's a shame.

smokedout's response basically said that only people with serious dysphoria are doing this (changing their bodies). I don't think that's correct (eg my cousin the dissister).
And the other bit about how the 'scientific' explanations (trans people have different biology etc) is helping was not addressed at all by anyone, including smokedout, the main proponent of those ideas.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yeh. And what's the point of your just saying?

bimble you want people to answer your questions. It's strange then you're reluctant to answer those asked of you

 

[bimble]

bimble you want people to answer your questions. It's strange then you're reluctant to answer those asked of you

Sorry I mostly skim over your posts as they are pointless. Please ask me a question and I will answer best I can promise.

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

smokedout's response basically said that only people with serious dysphoria are doing this (changing their bodies). I don't think that's correct.

How come?

 

[bimble]

How come?

People are being put on hormone blockers 'to give them time', eg my cousin's kid who is off them now. She/they did not have any physical dysphoria, it was all about gender roles from my (not many) talks with her/him at the time).
Things are changing fast, kids are going on tumblr and identifying as trans for reasons totally different from what might have motivated folks years ago, I hope its ok to acknowledge this.

 

[Pickman's model]

Sorry I mostly skim over your posts as they are pointless. Please ask me a question and I will answer best I can promise.

I have asked you a question. But answer comes there none.

Oh - and it's strange that you only skim the posts of your most-liked poster (as of when the wapoc thing went up)

 

[HoratioCuthbert]

People are being put on hormone blockers 'to give them time', eg my cousin's kid who is off them now. She/they did not have any physical dysphoria, it was all about gender roles from my (not many) talks with her/him at the time).
Things are changing fast, kids are going on tumblr and identifying as trans for reasons totally different from what might have motivated folks years ago, I hope its ok to acknowledge this.

So you agree, most are not changing their bodies after being given time?

I would have liked to see you chatting to this bairn.