Young woman murdered in Argoed, attacker killed by police taser

[Pickman's model]

The officer was trying to stop him carrying on with his lunch. That seems to be a reasonable probability. Given what we have been told.

you do know what self-defence is, right?

 

[Spymaster]

on what are you basing your claim that this was an instance of self-defence?

sounds to me more like pre-emptive self-defence...

Legally, self-defence includes the defence of others.

The reports I've seen so far suggest that Williams was attacking Cerys when the plod arrived.

 

[Citizen66]

You're getting this arse about face mate.

The presumption of innocence is a legal construct that begins when an alleged criminal is apprehended and faces trial. There will always be occasions where the arrest of violent criminals (particularly those eating the face off his victim) result in his death.

So perhaps we should just scrap the justice system, let the police deal with matters on the scene and we all accept their testimony delivered to us via the media then.

 

[Spymaster]

so he was eating the face of his victim and posing no immediate threat to the police constable who tasered him.

See #92.

 

[Pickman's model]

Legally, self-defence includes the defence of others.

source pls

The reports I've seen so far suggest that Williams was attacking Cerys when the plod arrived.

i would have thought that the officer would use the necessity defence.

 

[Spymaster]

you do know what self-defence is, right?

He's right.

 

[Pickman's model]

See #92.

so you're not disputing that if the facts were as stated he posed no threat to the police officer involved.

 

[Pickman's model]

He's right.

answer the question in #95

 

[xenon]

you do know what self-defence is, right?

Yes. Did the officer know the Vic Tim was dead when she arrived?

 

[Spymaster]

source pls

Sure:

Self-Defence and the Prevention of Crime

Reasonable Force
A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances for the purposes of:

• self-defence; or
• defence of another; or
• defence of property; or
• prevention of crime; or
• lawful arrest.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/

 

[Spymaster]

answer the question in #95

See above.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yes. Did the officer know the Vic Tim was dead when she arrived?

you seem to be talking shit because when you look at what the cps have to say about self-defence http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/#Principle it makes clear that self-defence and the prevention of crime are two separate defences.

next

 

[Pickman's model]

Sure:



http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/

as your link suggests, self-defence is different from defence of another.

 

[Pickman's model]

See above.

see #102, #103

 

[Pickman's model]

it's all gone very quiet

 

[Citizen66]

*taps watch*

 

[Pickman's model]

red leader calling Spymaster, come in Spymaster
red leader calling xenon, come in xenon

 

[Spymaster]

as your link suggests, self-defence is different from defence of another.

As you like but it's clear that defence of another is a defence, as is preventing a crime, as is during a lawful arrest. Any of which could apply.

Not sure what your point is or that you have one.

 

[Pickman's model]

As you like but it's clear that defence of another is a defence, as is preventing a crime, as is during a lawful arrest. Any of which could apply.

Not sure what your point is or that you have one.

there's been a lot of wittering that self-defence includes defence of another. it doesn't. while defence of another is a defence it isn't the same as self-defence and someone who used the defence of self-defence in a case where they were under no immediate threat could easily find themselves convicted of murder.

 

[Spymaster]

Actually, I'll take you on on this. I reckon you're wrong. Self defence includes the defence of others. Anyway it'll be more interesting than the rest of this thread.

Busy now, back later.

 

[shygirl]

Have the police actually done anything wrong here? Did they use higher voltage than usual?

 

[Spymaster]

there's been a lot of wittering that self-defence includes defence of another. it doesn't.

Yes it does. Quite clearly:

At common law the defence of self-defence operates in three spheres. It allows a person to use reasonable force to:

(a) Defend himself from an attack.

(b) Prevent an attack on another person, eg R v Rose (1884) 15 Cox 540, where the defendant who had shot dead his father whilst the latter was launching a murderous attack on the defendant's mother, was acquitted of murder on the grounds of self-defence.

(c) Defend his property.

Read more: Self Defence | Criminal Law Cases | Law Teacher http://www.lawteacher.net/criminal-law/cases/self-defence.php#ixzz3IfyHw7o6

.... someone who used the defence of self-defence in a case where they were under no immediate threat could easily find themselves convicted of murder.

Not so in (b) above.

Burden of Proof
The burden of proof remains with the prosecution when the issue of self-defence is raised.

The prosecution must adduce sufficient evidence to satisfy a jury beyond reasonable doubt that the defendant was either:

• not acting to defend himself/herself or another; or
• not acting to defend property; ornot acting to prevent a crime or to apprehend an offender; or

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/
(my emphasis)

Self defence definitely includes the defence of others.

 

[Spymaster]

So perhaps we should just scrap the justice system, let the police deal with matters on the scene and we all accept their testimony delivered to us via the media then.

No. We should keep the justice system but not be too harsh on police officers who kill people who are engaged in the act of eating a woman's face off.

 

[xenon]

you seem to be talking shit because when you look at what the cps have to say about self-defence http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/#Principle it makes clear that self-defence and the prevention of crime are two separate defences.

next

The officer, in line with what can constitute self defence, used force to stop him attacking the victim.

e2a. Alright. "defence of another."

 

[Citizen66]

No. We should keep the justice system but not be too harsh on police officers who kill people who are engaged in the act of eating a woman's face off.

So it's specifically a woman having her face eaten where we don't question extra judicial killing. Or could it apply to other contexts too?

 

[Spymaster]

So it's specifically a woman having her face eaten where we don't question accidental extra judicial killing. Or could it apply to other contexts too?

Plenty of others.

How about any situation where the suspect is engaged in murderous activity?

 

[Spymaster]

The officer, in line with what can constitute self defence, used force to stop him attacking the victim.

e2a. Alright. "defence of another."

Your post was fine without the edit.

 

[Citizen66]

Plenty of others.

How about any situation where the suspect is engaged in murderous activity?

Sounds good. Someone has just attacked your Mrs, you're in the process of defending her and the police rock up full of adrenaline and conclude that you are engaged in murderous activity. Bang, you're dead.

No trial or further investigation required according to your position.

 

[Spymaster]

No trial or further investigation required according to your position.

Ah, ok, re-reading your post I see what you mean.

That is not my position.

Of course there should be an investigation. There should be (and is) an investigation whenever someone is killed by the police, but no trial unless some wrongdoing or incompetence is found.

 

[Spymaster]

Sounds good. Someone has just attacked your Mrs, you're in the process of defending her and the police rock up full of adrenaline and conclude that you are engaged in murderous activity. Bang, you're dead.

No trial or further investigation required according to your position.

Turn this around.

Your Mrs is being brutally attacked and the police rock up and shoot her attacker dead.

Would you want the shooter done for murder?