A Woman's Place is Speaking Up in Wales

[MochaSoul]

I'm not aloud to know the new location in case I'm the mole... apparently

That was because of this:

But if you went to the original venue you will have been redirected to the new location






Feminists hit back after Cardiff hotel cancels Women's Place UK event following online pressure

 

[Ralph Llama]

When people exclude me from political activity due to me being `too radical`, I say... fuck them, they are not worth bothering with/contributing to. I do not try to sab their movement. But that`s just me.

 

[Ranbay]

That was because of this:
Snip
Feminists hit back after Cardiff hotel cancels Women's Place UK event following online pressure

the point is i wasn't the mole... or am i the mole... but i was accused of being the mole.

 

[MochaSoul]

When people exclude me from political activity due to me being `too radical`, I say... fuck them, they are not worth bothering with/contributing to. I do not try to sab their movement. But that`s just me.

No woman, no man, no trans has ever been excluded from a WPUK meeting.

 

[Ranbay]

I just want to know what the Ruth Women had against people dressing up as dogs

 

[Red Cat]

Catching up, I see you've deleted some posts. I hope you haven't gone, because I wanted to say this:

I don't post much, but I do read. There's a handful of posters here who keep me coming back. People with opinions I've come to really respect, with insightful observations and incisive political comments. Yourself, butchers, danny. I could count a few more off on my fingers but not many.

This place would be much the worse without your contributions.

Same for me.

I hope you're still here stethoscope.

 

[Ranbay]

Well there was no trouble at all at the new venue.

 

[MochaSoul]

I just want to know what the Ruth Women had against people dressing up as dogs

You dressed up as a dog for the meeting?

 

[MochaSoul]

Well there was no trouble at all at the new venue.

Nope.

 

[Ranbay]

Nope.

Yeah that's literally what i said.

 

[Ranbay]

You dressed up as a dog for the meeting?

I'm not there.

 

[frogwoman]

I think the law change is providing a moment of heightened attention, which has then drawn out a lot of peoples' genuine concerns as well as provided a lot of prejudiced people the opportunity to hide their more simplistic bigotry behind those with more genuine issues. Just as there is a small misogynistic faction in trans activism, there clearly are transphobes in society - people who think being trans is a phase or a choice or a curable mental or psychosexual disorder or worse (I'm reminded of hardcore homophobes)... and of course those people are masking themselves in the legitimacy of those with genuine concerns for women's safety.

I don't know what I think about every issue. I don't give a single hoot about sport, but clearly there's no easy solution there. The issue of women-only shorlists I suspect should include transwomen, but I do understand the issue...

There are important conversations to be had, but there's very little chance of that when extremists on either side are marshalling debate. We have a issue with literally millions of valid perspectives in the uk alone and currently the only ones being heard are those shouting the loudest. The use of intersex men and women as some kind of argument-winning unicorn means those voices are in danger of being entirely hijacked.

I dunno the answer. I don't know how urgent it is to solve the problem RIGHT NOW, when all the problems for everyone involved have been going on for ages. I wonder if the manufactured sense of urgency is causing problems (the heightened perception of fear, the concern that being trans is "trendy", trans people feeling under more overt attack...)

My own understanding of trans arose out of knowing trans people. With each new trans friend or relation I developed an insight. I can't help feeling like, when not trans people actually know more trans people, it'll become less of an issue.

this.

I've been doing a lot of rethinking of my own politics recently and I think this is true. People do have concerns but I really do not think this is the most important issue in feminism, trans people are not going to 'erase' women or female biology or anything like that. I also think that some of the legitimate concerns around eg medicalisation or what have you (which is frankly more of an issue in the US, rather than the UK where people have to wait years for anything like that) are being used and taken advantage of to legitimise bigotry against some of the most vulnerable people in society.

I admit I have fallen for this stuff in the past and I am sorry for anyone I upset or hurt because of that.

Trans people are not the enemy and some of the things said by people such as 'the women's place' etc are extreme and sound like a conspiracy theory. I also think that people need to be careful assuming that just because someone has a good record of activism in other areas it automatically means that their views are going to be sound on this.

 

[frogwoman]

But racists, by their very definition, are a hate group. Where's the hate in A Woman's Place, you haven't given me an answer to that question.

I can't comment on that particular event but I do know that whenever this topic comes up there are people who come out of the woodwork to post extreme, discriminatory stuff. You can't tell me that it is all about concerns about women's privacy, maybe that's how it started out but I don't think it is now. The recent stuff with the youtube shooter for instance, when people were posting a conspiracy theory that she was 'really' trans and evidence of this was being deleted from the internet. Disgusting shit.

 

[MochaSoul]

I can't comment on that particular event but I do know that whenever this topic comes up there are people who come out of the woodwork to post extreme, discriminatory stuff. You can't tell me that it is all about concerns about women's privacy, maybe that's how it started out but I don't think it is now. The recent stuff with the youtube shooter for instance, when people were posting a conspiracy theory that she was 'really' trans and evidence of this was being deleted from the internet. Disgusting shit.

After all, if we could trust media, and people in general, not to lie about biological sex, there would be no need for such speculation.

Speculation about mass shooter’s sex isn’t sexism, it’s a result of systematic gaslighting about biological sex of trans-identified perpetrators

 

[Ranbay]

Might jump in the Albany for a pint, it’s taking ages to finish

 

[frogwoman]

WordPress.com

Do you really think that if she was trans that someone would not have reported it?

 

[frogwoman]

and yeah there are predatory men, and people do lie about things. That doesn't mean that there is any basis to make up a conspiracy theory which just seems to be aimed at stirring up hate and fear. If there is any evidence that she was actually trans I would like to see it, but I don't think there is.

 

[MochaSoul]

and yeah there are predatory men, and people do lie about things. That doesn't mean that there is any basis to make up a conspiracy theory which just seems to be aimed at stirring up hate and fear. If there is any evidence that she was actually trans I would like to see it, but I don't think there is.

Not the point of the article. When people are wholesale marked as bigots as soon as they enter the debate, when they read article after article dismissing their concerns as anti-trans and when they see women being attacked for describing raped baby girls as "female" while political party wings advertise lying on medical forms it's only natural they'll see conspiracy. It's up to others to stand up against it but they don't. It's not politically expedient to stop it. Choices have been made and not by women. When they speculate they are guilty again but by then they've ceased to care (I, for example, don't even though different reasons prevented me from speculating about the shooter's sex).

 

[frogwoman]

from that link:

Hi [redacted]! In my experience, “transphobia” is an accusation thrown almost exclusivelly at women who challenge trans narrative, even if unintentionally, and it is more indicative of gaslighting than women’s “biases”. The only “transphobes” are men who commit violence against trans people, and especially transwomen, and they are almost never discussed in that context.

if you can't challenge the 'trans narrative' without being accused of transphobia, maybe you should ask yourself why.

 

[Edie]

frogwoman it’s not the most important issue in feminism, it’s really frustrating the way it’s become that.

But you mention crime, and the article posted above raises a point. Men have undisputedly higher levels of violent crime than women. If trans women have a similar level of violence as men, but their crimes are logged and counted as women’s crime, what does that mean? What might be the effects of that?

One effect might be a seeming decrease in the statistics of male violence, and an increase of ‘female’ violence. Might that muddy understanding of sex biased crime?
Might it lead to a reduction in schemes and policies that protect women?

I don’t know! I don’t. Maybe the numbers would be too small to be of any influence. Maybe taking female hormones would make trans men more likely to act and behave like women when it comes to violent crime.

But the fact is that no one yet knows. So I think the concern is, if you jump straight to the demand that says ‘trans women are women’ and there must be no discrimination between trans women and women (in policy, in public spaces, in statistics, in language) then that feels like it might be, that it COULD be, bad news for women.

Maybe not. But enough surely that we must be able to talk about this, without being accused of bigotry and hatred.

God damn, we have put up with fucking centuries of male violence, we are allowed to bloody discuss this!

 

[MochaSoul]

from that link:



if you can't challenge the 'trans narrative' without being accused of transphobia, maybe you should ask yourself why.

Oh but we do. It's just that our answers only get "You're a bigot!" retorts (unless we're trans, in which case we're "useful idiots")

 

[8ball]

I think relatively speaking the number of trans women is so low that if it really makes a dent in the figures it will only serve to show the disparity due to being born male, or just not make a dent, in which case it will point towards the toxic effects of being socialised as male. Whichever way it pans out, I hope it could lead to some progress.

Edit: sorry, that was in response to Edie

 

[frogwoman]

MochaSoul Edie what do you think about this?

Facts Matter; Challenging the myths about self identification

I think a bigger problem for women is the wholesale assault on public services during the last 30 years and especially since 2008, rather than a small number of trans people.

 

[ManchesterBeth]

But racists, by their very definition, are a hate group. Where's the hate in A Woman's Place, you haven't given me an answer to that question.

What utter bollocks. racism isn't about a few bad eggs. it isn't about some random bloke off the street calling you a turkish cunt.

Racism and anti-blackness infects every facet of reality we engage with. Racism is downplaying peoples personal and political agency. racism is depriving people of community resources. racism is making it much, much harder in a legal and professional context for the people being marginalised. Racism is about the education system telling you you are second class and must prostrate beneath whities feet from day fucking one. Racism is about using people as token bait (romas, irish, greek etc) about accentuating capitalist divisions within the working class. racism is about centuries of whitewashing of history. Racism is gendered, racism is patriarchal. Racism is about domestic abuse, about rape, about drugs, cops getting off scott free. racism is about war crimes and the way we respond to them. And I could go on and on.

Frankly I'm appalled that in 2018 we can still discuss racism as if its just hate crime. On an anarchist forum no less.

Go back to your treacherous imperialists in the lp, then.

 

[frogwoman]

This article seems to be challenging some of the radical feminist claims about trans people in quite a detailed debunking.

We at Be also recognise that there may be a need for single sex spaces. however, binary trans people are not a third gender, or their assigned at birth gender. Trans women are women, trans men are men, we will be repeating that a lot in this article. So, the only reason to be concerned about single sex spaces is because you do not believe that fact. This is often phrased along the lines of -“If you allow trans people in single sex spaces Jimmy the Rapist will put on a dress to attack women“. This is called a dog whistle. The person is actually saying that they believe that trans women are men who put on dresses to falsely access women only spaces. Whilst there is no law stopping men using women’s toilets (or vice versa, as any visit to a busy nightclub will show you) there are laws against rape, assault and violence. Preventing trans people accessing single sex spaces does not change these laws.

We work with organisations to improve their data collection methods, knowing how many trans service users a hospital trust has (for example) means they can provide better services. Knowing how many people on file do not need to be called in for a cervical smear test (because they do not have a cervix) saves money. Knowing how many people whose medical records say “male” who might need breast cancer screening because they are trans men saves lives. Having accurate data on all sections of the population helps everyone. There is no push to stop collecting data on cis women, and the addition of accurate data on trans people does not harm cis women. It is reminiscent of those who said same sex marriage would harm their marriages, simply by existing. Indeed making research more inclusive has many benefits. Not assuming, for example, that every woman is married, has children, changes their name upon marriage, has led to more accurate research and data collection methods.

 

[MochaSoul]

MochaSoul Edie what do you think about this?

Facts Matter; Challenging the myths about self identification

I think a bigger problem for women is the wholesale assault on public services during the last 30 years and especially since 2008, rather than a small number of trans people.

I stopped reading here:

This is often phrased along the lines of -“If you allow trans people in single sex spaces Jimmy the Rapist will put on a dress to attack women“. This is called a dog whistle. The person is actually saying that they believe that trans women are men who put on dresses to falsely access women only spaces. Whilst there is no law stopping men using women’s toilets (or vice versa, as any visit to a busy nightclub will show you) there are laws against rape, assault and violence. Preventing trans people accessing single sex spaces does not change these laws.

The trans umbrella has widened to include all manner of people from the weekend crossdresser to intersex people who don't even want to be included in that so that piece misrepresents me when they say that I think all trans are criminals when what I say is that it the law needs to be careful about how it goes about making it easier for trans people (which I agree) without putting women in danger and am I simply dogwhistling?

There you have it.

 

[frogwoman]

I stopped reading here:

The trans umbrella has widened to include all manner of people from the weekend crossdresser to intersex people who don't even want to be included in that so that piece misrepresents me when they say that I think all trans are criminals when what I say is that it the law needs to be careful about how it goes about making it easier for trans people (which I agree) without putting women in danger and am simply dogwhistling.

There you have it.

But that is not all that is being said is it.

 

[MochaSoul]

What utter bollocks. racism isn't about a few bad eggs. it isn't about some random bloke off the street calling you a turkish cunt.

Racism and anti-blackness infects every facet of reality we engage with. Racism is downplaying peoples personal and political agency. racism is depriving people of community resources. racism is making it much, much harder in a legal and professional context for the people being marginalised. Racism is about the education system telling you you are second class and must prostrate beneath whities feet from day fucking one. Racism is about using people as token bait (romas, irish, greek etc) about accentuating capitalist divisions within the working class. racism is about centuries of whitewashing of history. Racism is gendered, racism is patriarchal. Racism is about domestic abuse, about rape, about drugs, cops getting off scott free. racism is about war crimes and the way we respond to them. And I could go on and on.

Frankly I'm appalled that in 2018 we can still discuss racism as if its just hate crime. On an anarchist forum no less.

Go back to your treacherous imperialists in the lp, then.

But the current politics of what people are are exactly that: reframing axis of oppression to mere insulting/discriminating/yada. It applies as much to sexism as to racism.

No real analysis, for example, of why it was not acceptable for me to bleach my skin to fit in socially crafted structures that put me in the equivalent of the special needs group in my class but it's seemingly acceptable to unquestioningly affirm children's claim to be the wrong sex because they don't like pink and love trucks knowing that being a child is the time in human development to explore and discover.

 

[ddraig]

Might jump in the Albany for a pint, it’s taking ages to finish

I was in there!! Then got surrounded by them!! And ousted from table!!!

 

[ddraig]

It was held in a school