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World upside down

Ok so I've been reading up when time allows. And have decided that which ever way I attempt to tackle this idea of a hollow earth or inverted sphere or earth inside out, NoXion will continually pull up contray evidence based on scientific research probable's. Like seismic research, general relativity etc etc.

Let it be known that I have doubts about modern scientific evidence. As I believe alot of it is like a pyramid scheme.
Thoughts and ideas are based on probable's and theories.

Wrong. Scientific theories are based on a preponderance of observable evidence, which you have repeatedly failed to provide in support of your own hypothesis. If you're throwing out the scientific method because it doesn't support your hypothesis, then why should anyone take your claims seriously?

And of course It's also a bit tough to understand mathematic formulas, physics, chemistry, biology and remember to feed the cat and pay the paper boy.

No it isn't. Plenty of people with poor maths skills can understand the science while still remembering to do other stuff. I should know because I'm one of those people.

For me to give support to the kids. And the totally posible idea that there could be a universe below our feet, I will have to ditch modern science for a while and follow the spiritual path.

Which will tell you nothing about how the universe works because it's based on *faith*, not evidence.

'Shambhala' is coming up as an interesting avenue to pursue. Considering this is supposedly older than any of the organised religions.

It doesn't matter how old an idea is, if it's not supported by the evidence then it's not an explanation of how the natural world works.
 
No kids not on weed. just 6 and 4 & 4 again. (twins).
Lets all try looking at it as if you are a 6 year old. no knowledge based on any theory from text books.

a.Dad the earth spins round, why does rain fall in on us dad?
b.Gravity.
a.gravity whats that?

a.has anyone dug through the middle of the planet?
b.No
a.why not dad?
b.its to hot.
a.hot as the sun
b.yes, maybe hotter. i dont know.
a.So no one knows whats in the center of earth dad?
b.No
a.Is it the sun?
b.????? i dont know.
A slim volume on elementary relativity should see them right. Space-time curvature, geodesics, and gravity wells. Piece of cake.
 
I just reading through the wikipedia explanations of hollow earth. and it says that "The concept of a hollow Earth recurs many times in folklore".. love that. gives me a warm feeling. better than wining a noble prize.
Totally OT, but Iain M Banks plays with some interesting ideas in Matter (novel) - Wikipedia - which has a "shell world" made of concentric shells, with little nuclear suns rolling around the "ceiling" of some of the levels :)
 
Also this thread is heading in wrong direction.
its supposed to be about us looking into the universe not out into the universe.
The earth expanding is just a side line that could be happening?
Scientifically, you can't say "well, if we ignore this, then my hypothesis might be correct". If looking out into the universe is to be discounted, there needs to be a good (scientific) reason why - especially since it is by looking out into the universe that we are able to explain why some of the phenomena that you're trying to describe aren't that way.
 
Actually, having reflected on this for a bit, this is exactly the fallacious thinking that leads to conspiracy theories and religion.

I think the wonder of a 6-year-old who hasn't yet learned that there's usually a mundane explanation for magical things is a good thing to be around, but we have to be careful not to make the mistake of going from "what an interesting way to look at the world" to "what can we ignore to make this an actual possibility".

Bad Science takes a goal, then ignores (or discounts) any evidence which contradicts that goal; Good Science (as has been neatly explained on this thread) takes the goal - the "hypothesis" - and sets out to DISprove it. Only when the best scientific efforts to reject something have failed can it be considered to be anywhere nearer "proven".

So yes, all of the atoms in the universe could be expanding against some outside frame of reference. But we cannot speculate on what that would mean unless we can measurably and demonstrably demonstrate it - until then, that idea, and any deriving from it, are only notions with no scientific validity beyond their curiosity.

Similarly, it is possible, by excluding various factors and observations, to conclude that the Earth is flat, or even shell-like. But if only one factor or observation contradicts that, the shellworld theory has to be re-examined to take that into account. Or, of course, the observation can be demonstrated to be false, but what it can't be is simply discounted.

That's why scientific integrity is so difficult to achieve, and so tempting to swerve - it only ever takes one thing and the whole show comes to a grinding halt.

And, even if there's nothing to disprove the theory (I'm looking at you, string theorists), you're still stuck with the necessity of providing experimental observations to back it up. We're unlikely to be able to build particle accelerators of a size necessary to produce string objects on demand any time soon, so we're forced to rely on natural phenomena...but we don't quite know what a string-producing natural phenomenon would look like (though there are quite a few theories), so it's hard to know what to look for. It doesn't mean string theory is wrong - and it's a very appealing and tempting notion that it could be right - but until we can come up with something to show, repeatably, that the predictions for the theory hold true in fact, it's only a theory.

Same goes for shellworld. Except there's rather more to show that the idea is not factually correct.

But good luck explaining that lot to a 6 year old. Let him hang onto his magic for a bit longer.
 
Agreed in the most part except for this ..
Astro physics and theoretical physics are nowhere near "mundane"....
No, I agree - that was a slightly mischievous word to use. But, from my recollection of being a 6 year old, the realities were, while still intriguing, always something of a comedown from my imagined fantasies.

It's only a bit later on, as you get older, and you realise just how complex and nuanced that "mundane" stuff is that you realise it's better than anything a 6 year old mind can usually come up with :) I do hope the OP's kids have that realisation, and I think it's great that he's encouraging them to ask the kind of questions they're asking. Long may that continue.
 
Which will tell you nothing about how the universe works because it's based on *faith*, not evidence.

It doesn't matter how old an idea is, if it's not supported by the evidence then it's not an explanation of how the natural world works.

That's quite a big statement. Faith is having completed trust in something. Same as you are trusting scientific observation as fact.
 
No, mundane is the right word to use, at least in sense of meaning "not magical". It doesn't have to be synonymous with "boring" or "everyday".

In fact if anything I think mystical explanations are the most boring ones of all.

"How does that work/why does that happen?"

"Oh, God/a wizard/the Cosmic Spirit willed it to happen."

Yaaaaawn. That's not an explanation really. It's a way of avoiding having to give an explanation.
 
That's because it's mystical and not tangible. When science begins to develop ways to explain non explainable things then we are in deep shit.
 
That's quite a big statement. Faith is having completed trust in something. Same as you are trusting scientific observation as fact.
I trust scientific observations because they have been shown to be correct, on multiple occasions. Have you ever looked into how GPS works? If the design of GPS didn't take into account the theory of relativity, then it would not be as accurate as it is, because of the slight difference in time dilation between objects on the ground and the satellites in orbit.

That's not faith, that's accepting something that's demonstrable.
 
That's because it's mystical and not tangible. When science begins to develop ways to explain non explainable things then we are in deep shit.
Explaining the unexplained is an oxymoron. If something unexplained does turn out to have an explanation, then it was simply a lack of knowledge on our part. If something remains unexplained then the mystery-mongers have no more authority to speak on the subject than anyone else. If the said "mystery" contradicts established facts then it can be safely ignored as meaningless until such a time when evidence that something is going on is presented, at which point the "mystery" becomes amenable to scientific investigation.
 
Where does your spirit exist?
Where are your dreams from?
Why do we think?
What spirit?

Dreaming is what happens when you sleep, so dreams are clearly a product of the brain.

We think because that's what we evolved to do. Being able to think about things provides a bigger advantage than just reacting to the environment, at least for organisms like humans.
 
Spirit. Your consciousness.

Have you ever wondered why GPS in not accurate?
My consciousness is in my brain. I think it's a marvel that such a sophisticated lump of fleshy jelly can produce everything that makes me a person. I look forward to the time when we can crack all of the brain's secrets and not only reproduce this marvel for ourselves, but to improve upon it.

GPS is accurate, because as I mentioned it takes into account general relativity. If it didn't it wouldn't be accurate.
 
...
And, even if there's nothing to disprove the theory (I'm looking at you, string theorists), you're still stuck with the necessity of providing experimental observations to back it up. We're unlikely to be able to build particle accelerators of a size necessary to produce string objects on demand any time soon, so we're forced to rely on natural phenomena...but we don't quite know what a string-producing natural phenomenon would look like (though there are quite a few theories), so it's hard to know what to look for. It doesn't mean string theory is wrong - and it's a very appealing and tempting notion that it could be right - but until we can come up with something to show, repeatably, that the predictions for the theory hold true in fact,
it's only a theory...
string_theory.png
 
A shit load of acid?
Funny thing about that. I've had experiences with acid, and they've felt like my mind was opening up to the universe. Not in that New Age hippie nonsense way, but in an entirely existential and materialistic way, involving what at least felt like a deeper appreciation for the inherent tendencies of nature to unfold into chaotic patterns with no regard for any organising intelligence behind it all.

That's why I'm inclined to think that acid and similar drugs are experienced through the lenses of one's particular worldview.
 
GPS.gov: GPS Accuracy

Certain conditions can degrade GPS accuracy, but in optimal circumstances it can be very accurate considering the size of the Earth.
ok. So we going from accurate. to in optimal circumstances very accurate? And we are also saying certain conditions can degrade GPS Accuracy.
You Said the gps system is accurate based on gps incorporating general relativity. When gps could be up to 5m out of range. This tells me that the science is not 100% accurate.

I don't believe the earths core is solid based on seismic wave data. It's not 100% accurate.
 
This is the pyramid scheme I was on about. Basing one piece of science on top of another. When the possibility is that it's not correct at all.
 
ok. So we going from accurate. to in optimal circumstances very accurate? And we are also saying certain conditions can degrade GPS Accuracy.
You Said the gps system is accurate based on gps incorporating general relativity. When gps could be up to 5m out of range. This tells me that the science is not 100% accurate.

GPS doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be useful. And it would be useless without relativity:

Why does GPS depend on relativity?

I don't believe the earths core is solid based on seismic wave data. It's not 100% accurate.

Why? What have seismic measurements got to do with the accuracy of GPS?
 
GPS doesn't have to be 100% accurate to be useful. And it would be useless without relativity:

Why does GPS depend on relativity?



Why? What have seismic measurements got to do with the accuracy of GPS?

Agreed GPS is usefull. But it's not Accurate.

Cosmological constant is another questionable reason as to why gps is not accurate.

The seismic measurements go's back to the beginning of the thread. The topic of a solid core. Etc. Not to do with gps.
 
This is the pyramid scheme I was on about. Basing one piece of science on top of another. When the possibility is that it's not correct at all.

Pyramid scheme? There's no money involved. Scientific knowledge is based on repeated observations, and such observations can be used to explain a multitude of phenomena. That doesn't make it a pyramid scheme, that makes it self-consistent in accordance with what is known about observable reality.
 
Pyramid scheme? There's no money involved. Scientific knowledge is based on repeated observations, and such observations can be used to explain a multitude of phenomena. That doesn't make it a pyramid scheme, that makes it self-consistent in accordance with what is known about observable reality.

Of course there is money involved in science. That's acceptable. But the idea of the pyramid scheme is not in the finacial context. Just that some observational facts are incorrect leading to more incorrect observations and incorrect knowledge.
 
Agreed GPS is usefull. But it's not Accurate.[/QUOTE

It has to be accurate enough to be useful.

Cosmological constant is another questionable reason as to why gps is not accurate.

Why?

The seismic measurements go's back to the beginning of the thread. The topic of a solid core. Etc. Not to do with gps.

You still haven't explained why you disagree. You'd think that seismologists who work with seismological data on a daily basis would have noticed.
 
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