spitfire
Walty McWaltface
I'd love to go there.
The Sky Atlantic series of Das Boot had some relevant themes running through it, mainly series 2 I think.
But yeah, maybe one for the Fillums forum.
World War II
- Thread starter Hollis
- Start date
I'd love to go there.
The Sky Atlantic series of Das Boot had some relevant themes running through it, mainly series 2 I think.
But yeah, maybe one for the Fillums forum.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
they were the merchant Marine civillians their pay got stopped if the ship they were on was sunk!
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Well worth a visit if ever in Liverpool.I'd love to go there.
The Sky Atlantic series of Das Boot had some relevant themes running through it, mainly series 2 I think.
But yeah, maybe one for the Fillums forum.
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
I think it may have been used as a set for the scenes (actually Season 3), with the vengeful sub hunting captain getting his assignment.
Ray Stevenson giving it large.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
TBF they were unlikely to ever be in a position to need wages again
But Iif I’d been on a sunken ship, was lucky enough to survive, and was not paid for the doomed crossing, I think I’d sooner get a job emptying cesspits back on terra firma than doing another crossing.At least I’d like to think they were paid reasonably handsomely, even within the constraints of wartime, for every completed crossing, and that their next of kin would receive a decent payout otherwise.
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
According to this, when Skorzeny wasn't down on the farm in Ireland, he was killing ex-Nazi scientists on behalf of checks notes the Israeli Mossad:
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Just reading about the 500 kg WWII bomb recently discovered buried in Plymouth, being very carefully moved to sea to be blown up. I am now left with a morbid desire to learn in detail about the damage one such bomb would have caused on a typical British street/ neighbourhood. Are there any articles out there on the subject, or even online calculation tools similar to those on websites about the effects of a nuclear explosion?
likesfish
You can't park here sir
Blast Damage Estimation | International Ammunition Technical Guidelines here you go.
one bomb will destroy about 3 terrace houses and damage any houses in a 200m radius a junkers 88 could carry 3 0f those
a Lancaster could carry 14
one bomb will destroy about 3 terrace houses and damage any houses in a 200m radius a junkers 88 could carry 3 0f those
a Lancaster could carry 14
davesgcr
Reading books
The School of Ammunition which was some years ago at Location XXX - somewhere in Middle England would have the information. Long closed now.
Railway terms (just for a change from me of course) - a wagon of bombs - enroute for Ipswich yard one summer evening for the USAF for bombing in 1944 had previously been loaded with sulpher , not properly cleaned (war on you know...) - caught fire and was luckily next to the steam loco. Uncoupled by an incredibly brake crew - tried to leave the other 40 or so behind and before it could get to the open fields exploded. Signalman / fireman a lot of the town of Soham destroyed - huge crater blown in the track etc etc - ......the Yanks cleared it in about a day. Image if most of the train had gone ........
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
Our UXB never made the headlines.
Sure I've posted about it here before, just not on this thread. Although it was only 250kg so I guess that's fair enough.
Anyway, me and my German neighbour Christoff decided not to evacuate as we were far enough away not to worry about it. Had a few drinks whilst chatting with Mr Hodges ancestor.
Mlle Fire and Mini Fire were packed off to a local hotel, just in case.
Anyway found out years later that the bomb location was a lot fucking closer than we thought and perhaps drunken bravado was misadvised.
Sure I've posted about it here before, just not on this thread. Although it was only 250kg so I guess that's fair enough.
Anyway, me and my German neighbour Christoff decided not to evacuate as we were far enough away not to worry about it. Had a few drinks whilst chatting with Mr Hodges ancestor.
Mlle Fire and Mini Fire were packed off to a local hotel, just in case.
Anyway found out years later that the bomb location was a lot fucking closer than we thought and perhaps drunken bravado was misadvised.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
Am I right to guess there was minimal protection afforded by such helmets? Looks like a painted chamber pot. At least those issued to frontline troops looked a bit more robust, even if they were probably not good against direct projectile hits.And yes that is my W helmet.
Humberto
talk to the hand
Starting The World at War the other night, it seemed it was the left wing (communists, trade unionists) that Hitler went for first in the early days of the third reich. Communists put in camps, unions abolished. All the while building his cult and dictatorship; seemingly with little resistance amidst hunger, unemployment and demoralisation.
likesfish
You can't park here sir
it's the same helmet just painted white the military ones usually had a cloth cover to aid camo so looked a bit more robust they were issued into the 80s when the first kevlar ones were issued. They reduced lethal wounds from fragments
Serge Forward
Just enjoyin' my coffee.
There's a light on behind you. Why aren't you kicking off about it? Fail.Our UXB never made the headlines.
Sure I've posted about it here before, just not on this thread. Although it was only 250kg so I guess that's fair enough.
Anyway, me and my German neighbour Christoff decided not to evacuate as we were far enough away not to worry about it. Had a few drinks whilst chatting with Mr Hodges ancestor.
Mlle Fire and Mini Fire were packed off to a local hotel, just in case.
Anyway found out years later that the bomb location was a lot fucking closer than we thought and perhaps drunken bravado was misadvised.
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Eta: I never realised you were a vicar... or a cop
spitfire
Walty McWaltface
There's a light on behind you. Why aren't you kicking off about it? Fail.
Eta: I never realised you were a vicar... or a cop
It doesn't fit on my big paddy potato head.
T & P
|-o-| (-o-) |-o-|
I am assuming the bomb was unearthed during home improvement work at the back of the back garden in question? Surely there might have been a few instances over the decades where a bomb was detonated in similar circumstances?
I seem to remember there was at least one such case in the Continent not that long ago, but in thirty years here I don’t recall such incident ever occurring here.
I seem to remember there was at least one such case in the Continent not that long ago, but in thirty years here I don’t recall such incident ever occurring here.
Hollis
bloody furious
I was going down to Penzance by train Friday afternoon. So ended up spending 3 hours in Plymouth due to the unexploded bomb closing the line.
I did cross my mind that my Nan served as a lookout at nights at Berry Head, Brixham during the war. I assume as part of the ATS. Either way it's not entirely impossible that she may have reported the raid coming in.
Either way, I decided to try not to get too grumpy about my delay, even though it appears central Plymouth has never really recovered from the war damage!
I did cross my mind that my Nan served as a lookout at nights at Berry Head, Brixham during the war. I assume as part of the ATS. Either way it's not entirely impossible that she may have reported the raid coming in.
Either way, I decided to try not to get too grumpy about my delay, even though it appears central Plymouth has never really recovered from the war damage!
likesfish
You can't park here sir
the luftwaffe was never really set up for strategic bombing it's largest bomber could carry carry half what a Lancaster could and their were a lot less of them while Gemrany got bombed in the daytime by the USAF and at night by the raf more intensively and for a lot longer than the UK was bombed.
Puddy_Tat
santa paws, do you ever come to the ghetto?
it depends.
there were different types of bombs dropped - incendiary, high explosive, parachute and so on. and that's before getting in to the V1 and V2s.
the london county council's bomb damage maps are now online here. the colour indicates severity of damage - black = completely destroyed, purple= damaged beyond repair through to yellow for minor damage. (a large circle drawn indicates a V1 or V2)
this (in Mottingham) is fairly typical - 3 terraced houses semis destroyed, with significant damage to 2 next door, lesser damage to 2 others in the block, and minor damage to 2 across the road.
In the SE London street where mum-tat lives*, one pair of semis was demolished, the two either side damaged, and minor damage shown to almost every other house in the street (although some of this could have been a different bomb that fell on the next street back). i suspect there might have been some variations as to whether things like broken windows and minor cracks to the plasterwork were recorded consistently as minor damage.
* - she wasn't there at the time, she was further out in to what was then still kent, but there was one occasion when she and her mum heard a V1 'doodlebug' stop more or less overhead, although it came down about half a mile away. i understand that with the V2's you didn't hear them coming.
Puddy_Tat
santa paws, do you ever come to the ghetto?
although looks like they got rebuilt to more or less original style - you can't see the join now
the ones on mum-tat's street also got rebuilt almost to original standard - there's one or two very minor differences.
Hollis
bloody furious
I dunno about the Blitz, but with the Allies, when they were doing area bombing, I think the idea was you'd send down some high explosives to blow the roofs off buildings, then follow up with incendries to create a firestorm. Success factors included what the buildings were made of, and what the weather was like. Hamburg was a major success. But they couldn't reapeat it.
ETA: this all reminds me of a rather awkward moment during my school German exchange trip in the 80s to Hamburg, when his father rather pointedly noted during a tour of the city that all of this had been destroyed by the British.
Puddy_Tat
santa paws, do you ever come to the ghetto?
There used to be a great website called bombsight.org which tracked and had history on London bombings.. Doesn't seem to be working now..
it's still there, but it's struggling to load. not sure if it's not well, or too many people using it.
one of my (now retired) colleagues a while ago used to do a fair bit of travel in europe, especially when he was still a railway employee and got cheap travel. he apparently once got in to conversation with a german railwayman about east london, and he (the german) obviously knew the area. colleague said 'you've spent some time there?' to which the answer was 'only from the air'
Hollis
bloody furious
It seems the Luftwaffe actually pioneered firebombing in the Blitz... later adopted by the RAF.
Firebombing - Wikipedia
Firebombing - Wikipedia
likesfish
You can't park here sir
That's the full quote
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them.
At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naive theory into operation.
They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
Cologne, Lubeck, Rostock—Those are only just the beginning.
We cannot send a thousand bombers a time over Germany every time, as yet.
But the time will come when we can do so.
Let the Nazis take good note of the western horizon.
There they will see a cloud as yet no bigger than a man’s hand.
But behind that cloud lies the whole massive power of the United States of America.
When the storm bursts over Germany, they will look back to the days of Lubeck and Rostock and Cologne as a man caught in the blasts of a hurricane will look back to the gentle zephyrs of last summer.
It may take a year. It may take two.
But for the Nazis, the writing is on the wall.
Let them look out for themselves. The cure is in their own hands.
There are a lot of people who say that bombing can never win a war.
Well, my answer to that is that it has never been tried yet, and we shall see.
Germany, clinging more and more desperately to her widespread conquests and even seeking foolishly for more, will make a most interesting initial experiment.
Japan will provide the confirmation.
But the time is not yet. There is a great deal of work to be done first, and let us all get down to it.
horrifying that that was the precieved wisdom to take the fight to germany
The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them.
At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put that rather naive theory into operation.
They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
Cologne, Lubeck, Rostock—Those are only just the beginning.
We cannot send a thousand bombers a time over Germany every time, as yet.
But the time will come when we can do so.
Let the Nazis take good note of the western horizon.
There they will see a cloud as yet no bigger than a man’s hand.
But behind that cloud lies the whole massive power of the United States of America.
When the storm bursts over Germany, they will look back to the days of Lubeck and Rostock and Cologne as a man caught in the blasts of a hurricane will look back to the gentle zephyrs of last summer.
It may take a year. It may take two.
But for the Nazis, the writing is on the wall.
Let them look out for themselves. The cure is in their own hands.
There are a lot of people who say that bombing can never win a war.
Well, my answer to that is that it has never been tried yet, and we shall see.
Germany, clinging more and more desperately to her widespread conquests and even seeking foolishly for more, will make a most interesting initial experiment.
Japan will provide the confirmation.
But the time is not yet. There is a great deal of work to be done first, and let us all get down to it.
horrifying that that was the precieved wisdom to take the fight to germany
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The above statement from Harris reminded me that one of the curious things about Dresden and other bombings of residential areas is that not only was public reaction mixed but the Air Ministry felt that they needed to present the aims and outcomes of these bombing raids as something slightly different.
Harris believed that “any civilian who produces more than enough to maintain himself is making a positive contribution to the German war effort and is therefore a proper though not necessarily a worthwhile object of attack".
He also wanted the Air Ministry to make a statement outlining the true aims of the bombing strategy :
" The destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers and the disruption of civilised community life throughout Germany’ would emphasise that such outcomes were ‘not by-products of attempts to hit factories’ and that ‘Acreages of housing devastation are infinitely more important’ as a measure of the bombers success rather than the destruction of industry"
The Air Ministry's response was :
"It is in any event, desirable to present the bomber offensive in such a light as to provoke the minimum of public controversy and so far as possible to avoid conflict with religious and humanitarian opinion. Any public protest, whether reasonable or unreasonable against the bomber offensive could not but hamper the Government in the execution of their policy and might affect the morale of the aircrew themselves. 7. The Council are therefore unwilling to change the emphasis of their publicity."
The position of the Air Ministry was that it's press releases and statements should always emphasise the military and industrial significance of targets that were bombed within the area. They knew though that by publishing photographs, newspapers writing articles, and foreign press reports not subject to the UK's press restrictions is that it was obvious that civilians were being killed on a large scale. Their strategy was how this should be presented.
Public reaction actually wasn't as gung ho as the post war enthusiasts imagine it was. Out of 154 Mass Observation Diaries, only 13 wrote anything on the bombing raids in Germany, on average six entries and the responses were mixed .
Harris believed that “any civilian who produces more than enough to maintain himself is making a positive contribution to the German war effort and is therefore a proper though not necessarily a worthwhile object of attack".
He also wanted the Air Ministry to make a statement outlining the true aims of the bombing strategy :
" The destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers and the disruption of civilised community life throughout Germany’ would emphasise that such outcomes were ‘not by-products of attempts to hit factories’ and that ‘Acreages of housing devastation are infinitely more important’ as a measure of the bombers success rather than the destruction of industry"
The Air Ministry's response was :
"It is in any event, desirable to present the bomber offensive in such a light as to provoke the minimum of public controversy and so far as possible to avoid conflict with religious and humanitarian opinion. Any public protest, whether reasonable or unreasonable against the bomber offensive could not but hamper the Government in the execution of their policy and might affect the morale of the aircrew themselves. 7. The Council are therefore unwilling to change the emphasis of their publicity."
The position of the Air Ministry was that it's press releases and statements should always emphasise the military and industrial significance of targets that were bombed within the area. They knew though that by publishing photographs, newspapers writing articles, and foreign press reports not subject to the UK's press restrictions is that it was obvious that civilians were being killed on a large scale. Their strategy was how this should be presented.
Public reaction actually wasn't as gung ho as the post war enthusiasts imagine it was. Out of 154 Mass Observation Diaries, only 13 wrote anything on the bombing raids in Germany, on average six entries and the responses were mixed .
Idris2002
Christmas Eve, you know?
Last night we watched this documentary about William Golding, author of Lord of the Flies. He commanded a rocket ship in the battle of the Walcheren islands, and he did not have a good war.
He'd been told that Dutch civilians had been evacuated from the area by their German occupiers, but this turned out to not be true. . .
This link talks more about it, and mentions in passing the rocket firing ships, including the one Golding must have commanded.
warfarehistorynetwork.com
(NB, you'll have to skip through the HIGNFY stuff at the beginning).
He'd been told that Dutch civilians had been evacuated from the area by their German occupiers, but this turned out to not be true. . .
This link talks more about it, and mentions in passing the rocket firing ships, including the one Golding must have commanded.
Brutal Battle for a Dutch Island
The Dutch island of Walcheren had to be taken by the British and Canadians if the port of Antwerp were to become useful to the Allies.
warfarehistorynetwork.com
(NB, you'll have to skip through the HIGNFY stuff at the beginning).
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