World War II

[DaveCinzano]

Interesting story here about a dust up on a French sub that didn't want to handover to the British in 1940.

Seizure of the Surcouf

A fatal gun battle erupted when British sailors tried to take control of a French submarine after its homeland surrendered in 1940.

warfarehistorynetwork.com

What a shitshow

 

[spitfire]

View attachment 376806View attachment 376807View attachment 376808

A forgotten corner of WW2.

I'm at /near St Mandrier Sur Mer, round the corner from Toulon. I've been here loads of times but completely missed the massive WW2 battery remnants at the end of the beach...

When I walked past earlier it looked to me like some German stuff with a load of post war French stuff added later but apparently a lot of it is WW2, (shows you what I know). Looked a lot more modern than the Atlantic Wall places I have seen. I imagine they had a bit more time and less urgency so could go a bit further architecturally than they could in the Channel with a load of slave labour, planks and concrete. I'm sure they still used the labour but spent a bit more time on the construction.

So looks like the structures are WW2 but there is some post war French kit added for some reason? WTF is that in picture 2 below? Looks like a rocket launcher or something but no traverse capability from what I can see???

There were 2 MASSIVE guns here from the Provence:

"In World War II, Saint-Mandrier-sur-Mer was fortified with two turrets, each mounting a pair of 340mm naval guns taken the French battleship Provence. This fortress controlled the approaches to Toulon; the range and power of these guns was such that a considerable Allied naval force was required to destroy them. Part of the fleet and the first to engage the battery was the Free French battleship Lorraine, sister ship to the Provence and mounting the same type of gun. The Allies, who termed the battery 'Big Willie', dedicated a battleship or heavy cruiser to shelling it every day; eventually USS Nevada silenced the guns on 23 August 1944, although the fortress would not be taken until 28th.[3][4]

eta: batterie du Gros-Bau - Inventaire Général du Patrimoine Culturel

"After the capitulation of the Italians in September 1943, the Germans took charge of the old French shore batteries of Sablettes and Saint-Elme, which became the focal point of a system of nine reactivated and armed French shore batteries. The whole then formed the Stp Tor 016, the vanguard of the defense of the peninsula of Saint-Mandrier, and in August 1944 housed a very strong garrison including the command post of IL / Grenadier-Regiment 918 , a company of grenadiers (8.1918), the command post of the MAA682, and a radar station located in the "fort" of Gros Bau.

After the war, the old battery was abandoned, but remained in the hands of the defence, which kept it closed.

Nowadays, various doors, including that of the main entrance and those of the shelter and underground crossings, were walled up after 1995 to limit intrusions. However, the old abandoned battery, quite completely preserved, is frequently visited and has particularly inspired, since the 2000s, taggers, who have studded most of its walls with their graphic production, until saturation."










eta: pics from View thread didn't copy over very well so here they are below.

 

[spitfire]

 

[brogdale]

If you've ever visited Canterbury and been a bit underwhelmed by the urban fabric of the centre, this OTD tweet might give some explanation:

 

[Hollis]

Just finished reading this... highly recommend it. Difficult to feel too much sympathy for Chamberlain..

 

[agricola]

Just finished reading this... highly recommend it. Difficult to feel too much sympathy for Chamberlain..

View attachment 377283

Have you read "Troublesome Young Men" by Lynne Olson?

 

[Hollis]

No - looks interesting! On the list..

 

[marty21]

I'm a late listener of the We Have Ways of Making You Talk , podcast mentioned on the thread , enjoying them immensely.

 

[spitfire]

I'm a late listener of the We Have Ways of Making You Talk , podcast mentioned on the thread , enjoying them immensely.

I sort of dropped off listening shortly after I posted that. Change of circs so didn’t need podcasts anymore whilst at work. Should pick them up again.

They’re doing their second mini festival later in the year but not sure I could do a full weekend with the type of bloke who spends the first 10 minutes of every conversation discussing which A roads they took to get there. Loads of them at Duxford already.

 

[T & P]

I apologise in advance for what is probably a very stupid question, but at the end of the day I still don’t know the answer.

When the Nazis started their persecution of Jewish people, first in Germany and then on those countries they’d conquered during the war, how did they decide who might be Jewish? Was one’s race or ethnicity always stated on their birth/ identity papers all across Europe? Because if not, I am not sure how they would go on to identify Jewish citizens in the likes of France, Italy or elsewhere, unless they went on by looks, perceived Jewish surnames, or hearsay by collaborating locals…

I’d never thought about it before, but it’d certainly be horrific if countries across Europe saw fit to record people’s religion and ethnicity even when no discrimination had been intended, and their own records were then used by Germany to hunt down the local Jewish populations.

 

[Humberto]

Well there was a really heightened sense of threat/othering that had gone on for years. Like vicious and hysterical and constant. You've a secret police and private paramilitary. It's a good question I think, is all I have to say. You certainly could be arrested and interrogated for looking Jewish. Happened to my nan who survived.

 

[Humberto]

‘Asocials’

The Nazis used the terms ‘asocial’ and ‘workshy’ to categorise together a group of people who did not conform to their social norms.

This group included beggars, alcoholics, drug addicts, prostitutes, and pacifists (people who believe war is unjustified).
People who were categorised as ‘asocials’ were persecuted and some were taken to concentration camps where they were forced to wear black triangles.
Roma and Sinti people were often classed as ‘asocial’.

Holocaust Memorial Day Trust | ‘Asocials’

The Nazis used the terms ‘asocial’ and ‘workshy’ to categorise together a group of people who did not conform to their social norms. This group included beggars, alcoholics, drug addicts, prostitutes, and pacifists.

www.hmd.org.uk

I mean anyone the Volkisher Beobachter had their eyes on.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I apologise in advance for what is probably a very stupid question, but at the end of the day I still don’t know the answer.

When the Nazis started their persecution of Jewish people, first in Germany and then on those countries they’d conquered during the war, how did they decide who might be Jewish? Was one’s race or ethnicity always stated on their birth/ identity papers all across Europe? Because if not, I am not sure how they would go on to identify Jewish citizens in the likes of France, Italy or elsewhere, unless they went on by looks, perceived Jewish surnames, or hearsay by collaborating locals…

I’d never thought about it before, but it’d certainly be horrific if countries across Europe saw fit to record people’s religion and ethnicity even when no discrimination had been intended, and their own records were then used by Germany to hunt down the local Jewish populations.

Mix of all of the above.

How did the Germans know who was Jewish? :: About Holocaust

German officials identified Jews residing in Germany through the normal records created by a modern state.

aboutholocaust.org

The use of data to is an overlooked aspect of the war and the efficiency of Germany to get it and use it, mostly for murdering the innocent is much overlooked compared to many other aspects.

 

[RedRedRose]

The act of emancipating the Jews happened very late in 1869, then 1871 with the Unification of Germany across other German states. I always understood the German states begrudged emancipation because it was initially imposed on them during the Napoleonic period, which had emancipated the Jews a few years after the French Revolution.

At the risk of repeating something I have talked about before, during WW1 the German high command became convinced not enough Jews were doing their bit and they carried out a census: Judenzählung. (Hint, they were wrong). So, gathering info on Jews had precedence even in the Second Reich.

 

[yield]

The use of data to is an overlooked aspect of the war and the efficiency of Germany to get it and use it, mostly for murdering the innocent is much overlooked compared to many other aspects.

Seeing Like a State by James C. Scott
How Certain Schemes to Improve the Human Condition Have Failed

The discriminating interventions that a legible society makes possible can, of course, be deadly as well. A sobering instance is wordlessly recalled by a map produced by the City Office of Statistics of Amsterdam, then under Nazi occupation, in May 1941 (figure 13).[181] Along with lists of residents, the map was the synoptic representation that guided the rounding up of the city’s Jewish population, sixty-five thousand of whom were eventually deported.

The map is titled “The Distribution of Jews in the Municipality.” Each dot represents ten Jews, a scheme that makes the heavily Jewish districts readily apparent. The map was compiled from information obtained not only through the order for people of Jewish extraction to register themselves but also through the population registry (“exceptionally comprehensive in the Netherlands”)[182] and the business registry. If one reflects briefly on the kind of detailed information on names, addresses, and ethnic backgrounds (determined perhaps by names in the population registry or by declaration) and the cartographic exactitude required to produce this statistical representation, the contribution of legibility to state capacity is evident.

The Nazi authorities, of course, supplied the murderous purpose behind the exercise, but the legibility provided by the Dutch authorities supplied the means to its efficient implementation.[183] That legibility, I should emphasize, merely amplifies the capacity of the state for discriminating interventions—a capacity that in principle could as easily have been deployed to feed the Jews as to deport them.

 

[T & P]

I would like to think that at least a number of Jewish people, and all others minorities and political opponents in the Nazi crosshairs managed to escape with forged papers. Skilled forgers existed well before the 1940s, and I can’t imagine German guards and soldiers would have had the means or inclination to check if someone’s papers checked out with official records held far away, certainly if they looked authentic.

 

[Artaxerxes]

I would like to think that at least a number of Jewish people, and all others minorities and political opponents in the Nazi crosshairs managed to escape with forged papers. Skilled forgers existed well before the 1940s, and I can’t imagine German guards and soldiers would have had the means or inclination to check if someone’s papers checked out with official records held far away, certainly if they looked authentic.

Thousands did yes

And some escaped to the effective weaponisation of the same bureaucracy by men like Chiune Sugihara and others like him.

 

[Hollis]

79 years ago tonight



The aerodrome (Smeatharpe) is near to my home town.. now used for banger racing I think.. hard to imagine this happening there.

 

[spitfire]

This is kinda cute but also a bit sad.

Deliberately big so you can read it.

Alt. text of a Dutch leaflet for the liberating forces.

Spoiler: tweet

 

[likesfish]

I'm watching the excellent series Rise of the Nazis on iPlayer and one of the episodes is about Sophie Scholl and the White Rose anti-nazi movement. Something i already knew a lot about but i did think 'I'd like to read the leaflets they disrupted" and found the english translations...

White Rose documents

Nothing is so unworthy of a civilised nation as allowing itself to be governed without opposition by an irresponsible clique that has yielded to base instinct. It is certain that today every honest German is ashamed of his government.

The footnote also has an English translation of the transcripts from the White Rose trial court hearing and sentencing.

Fascination stuff.

anti covid vax / conspriacy loons are using the name now actually brought a scraper to remove their shit stickers

 

[Pickman's model]

anti covid vax / conspriacy loons are using the name now actually brought a scraper to remove their shit stickers

Don't need a scraper keys are fine

 

[Idris2002]

Don't need a scraper keys are fine

He's a squaddie, he's got to have his specialised pieces of kit.

 

[Pickman's model]

He's a squaddie, he's got to have his specialised pieces of kit.

Some time ago I got a gerber shard, one of the most useful things I've bought. It'll open bottles, undo screws, scrape wires for when changing plugs etc and is really good at taking down dodgy stickers. Plus it's a little pry-bar too and the best thing for removing staples I've found. A scraper will just scrape

 

[likesfish]

have a leatherman and bit set
swiss army knife
mini leatherman
bicycle multitool
one more wont hurt

 

[Sue]

Some time ago I got a gerber shard, one of the most useful things I've bought. It'll open bottles, undo screws, scrape wires for when changing plugs etc and is really good at taking down dodgy stickers. Plus it's a little pry-bar too and the best thing for removing staples I've found. A scraper will just scrape

I have never heard of this before but this is my new favourite term.

'You're such a gerber shard, Pickman's model '

 

[Hollis]

Oppenheimer related stuff - this is the only photo I can find of the two leaders of the nuclear bomb progammes in Germany and America together: Heisenberg to the left - Oppenheimer to the right.. Dannish nuclear physist, Moller, in the middle. International Nuclear Conference, Geneva, Switzerland, July 2, 1958.

 

[T & P]

I’m sure I remember being mentioned in multiples articles/ TV documentaries before that Hitler didn’t want the Luftwaffe to destroy the most important historical landmarks in London, as he envisioned himself enjoying them as spoils of war once England had been conquered.

Presumably that’s the one reason the likes of Buckingham Palace and the Houses of Parliament endured relatively light damage over the entire course of WWII? Because if Hitler had given up at any point on his vision and given the order to flatten its most relevant historical landmarks as a fuck you to Britain, it seems staggering that the Luftwaffe didn’t do a better job of it. Blackout & barrage balloons or not, if you really intended to destroy the likes of Tower Bridge, Parliament or the Palace as revenge, and still have the capacity to launch 400-plane-strong raids on London, as the Germans did well past the time they’d abandoned Operation Sealion, I can’t believe believe they were incapable to do so, considering how many large scale raids they carried out over the course of the conflict.

 

[Pickman's model]

I’m sure I remember being mentioned in multiples articles/ TV documentaries before that Hitler didn’t want the Luftwaffe to destroy the most important historical landmarks in London, as he envisioned himself enjoying them as spoils of war once England had been conquered.

Presumably that’s the one reason the likes of Buckingham Palace and the Houses of Parliament endured relatively light damage over the entire course of WWII? Because if Hitler had given up at any point on his vision and given the order to flatten its most relevant historical landmarks as a fuck you to Britain, it seems staggering that the Luftwaffe didn’t do a better job of it. Blackout & barrage balloons or not, if you really intended to destroy the likes of Tower Bridge, Parliament or the Palace as revenge, and still have the capacity to launch 400-plane-strong raids on London, as the Germans did well past the time they’d abandoned Operation Sealion, I can’t believe believe they were incapable to do so, considering how many large scale raids they carried out over the course of the conflict.

The fourteen times the Palace of Westminster was struck presumably in error then. And the commons chamber being entirelty gutted by fire due to an incendiary bomb doesn't seem too minor to me. Pity they didn't level the fucking place tho

 

[Radiatori]

They did the best they could,
but weren't up to it.

Baedeker Blitz - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

"To increase the effect on civilian morale, targets were chosen for their cultural and historical significance, rather than for any military value."

"By any measure, the attempt was a failure. In the time following the original German bombing campaign of 1940–41 ("The Blitz"), a little over a year earlier, the RAF had dramatically improved its night fighter capability and introduced the AMES Type 7 radar specifically for the night fighting role. Losses to the Luftwaffe's bomber force were unsustainable"

 

[T & P]

The fourteen times the Palace of Westminster was struck presumably in error then. And the commons chamber being entirelty gutted by fire due to an incendiary bomb doesn't seem too minor to me. Pity they didn't level the fucking place tho

Well, that was kind of part of my wondering about the issue.. I know precision bombing was not achievable at the time from that altitude, but if Hitler had at any point issued the order to destroy the Palace at all costs, it seems inconceivable they only managed to hit Westminster fourteen times. Certainly if the Germans retained the capacity and will to send massive waves of bombers to target East London.

Not that I want to try to get into Hitler’s mindset in too much detail, but if I was happy with total war and had given up on conquering Britain but was still happy to punish the population with regular raids, I’d have demanded to see London’s most iconic landmarks razed to the ground.