World War II

[mx wcfc]

I’m sure I remember being mentioned in multiples articles/ TV documentaries before that Hitler didn’t want the Luftwaffe to destroy the most important historical landmarks in London, as he envisioned himself enjoying them as spoils of war once England had been conquered.

Presumably that’s the one reason the likes of Buckingham Palace and the Houses of Parliament endured relatively light damage over the entire course of WWII? Because if Hitler had given up at any point on his vision and given the order to flatten its most relevant historical landmarks as a fuck you to Britain, it seems staggering that the Luftwaffe didn’t do a better job of it. Blackout & barrage balloons or not, if you really intended to destroy the likes of Tower Bridge, Parliament or the Palace as revenge, and still have the capacity to launch 400-plane-strong raids on London, as the Germans did well past the time they’d abandoned Operation Sealion, I can’t believe believe they were incapable to do so, considering how many large scale raids they carried out over the course of the conflict.

There's an urban myth down here that Winchester didn't get deliberately bombed because Hitler wanted to be crowned Emperor of Britain in Winchester Cathedral, Winchester being the "capital" of the germanic Anglo Saxon Kingdom.

It is odd the city wasn't targeted by bombers, given the army barracks that were here. Maybe they just didn't have a Baedecker Guide for Winchester.

The city was bombed once, but it appears to have been a lone, lost, small bomber that dumped its load on the local brewery. There were a lot of civilian casualties.

 

[Elpenor]

I’d have thought the east end docks, and the aircraft factories were of far more valuable target due to their strategic value,

Westminster / Buckingham palace were ultimately just office / residential buildings of little real value - but perhaps some propaganda value - unless by chance a bomb took out Ber-ber-ber-Bertie or Churchill but IIRC they spent their nights outside of London to avoid such a risk.

 

[Hollis]

This is a great podcast - not specifically SWW. Quite 'academic' - but still a good listen for it..

Listened to the episode on 'combat motivation' and it's very wide-ranging - just nice to hear three historians talking about this stuff!

Military History Plus

 

[Artaxerxes]

I’d have thought the east end docks, and the aircraft factories were of far more valuable target due to their strategic value,

Westminster / Buckingham palace were ultimately just office / residential buildings of little real value - but perhaps some propaganda value - unless by chance a bomb took out Ber-ber-ber-Bertie or Churchill but IIRC they spent their nights outside of London to avoid such a risk.

Given the resources spent on murdering anyone Hitler didn't like (and the switch from targeting airfields and aircrew to civilian infrastructure out of revenge for raids in Germany) I wouldn't put much faith in Germany's grasp of target priorities

 

[agricola]

Well, that was kind of part of my wondering about the issue.. I know precision bombing was not achievable at the time from that altitude, but if Hitler had at any point issued the order to destroy the Palace at all costs, it seems inconceivable they only managed to hit Westminster fourteen times. Certainly if the Germans retained the capacity and will to send massive waves of bombers to target East London.

Not that I want to try to get into Hitler’s mindset in too much detail, but if I was happy with total war and had given up on conquering Britain but was still happy to punish the population with regular raids, I’d have demanded to see London’s most iconic landmarks razed to the ground.

I think he understood that bombing the Palace would have done nothing positive for him; as then Queen said once the Palace had been bombed (in September 1940) she felt she could look the East End in the face.

Plus of course at that point he probably wasn't happy with total war, quite the opposite in fact (at least in relation to Britain and its empire).

 

[T & P]

Mark Felton’s videos on YouTube continue to reveal very interesting facts I’d been completely unaware of until now. Today I learned that by necessity the Avro Lancaster was up until the 11th hour the designated aircraft to drop the atomic bombs on Japan, as no US plane could carry them. Even after Boeing said they might e able to modify their brand new B-29 bomber in time, a small fleet of Lancasters painted black and with no identifying marks were kept secret even from the rest of the RAF personnel, and were especially modified to be refuelled in-flight so to be able to complete the mission. They even performed dry runs of the atomic bombing raid.

 

[spitfire]

Mark Felton’s videos on YouTube continue to reveal very interesting facts I’d been completely unaware of until now. Today I learned that by necessity the Avro Lancaster was up until the 11th hour the designated aircraft to drop the atomic bombs on Japan, as no US plane could carry them. Even after Boeing said they might e able to modify their brand new B-29 bomber in time, a small fleet of Lancasters painted black and with no identifying marks were kept secret even from the rest of the RAF personnel, and were especially modified to be refuelled in-flight so to be able to complete the mission. They even performed dry runs of the atomic bombing raid.

I can’t back this up with links right now but he has been flagged up as deeply problematic, sensationalist , YouTube history of the lowest order.

In this case I have read similar but don’t remember where. It just seems unbelievable the yanks would let anyone else get that deeply involved.

Am in a boat so some vague hand waving is all you’re getting tonight.

 

[T & P]

I can’t back this up with links right now but he has been flagged up as deeply problematic, sensationalist , YouTube history of the lowest order.

In this case I have read similar but don’t remember where. It just seems unbelievable the yanks would let anyone else get that deeply involved.

Am in a boat so some vague hand waving is all you’re getting tonight.

Is that really so? I’d be disappointed if that was the case. All the comments I’ve seen (which of course are proof of nothing) over his many videos have been pretty much 100% complimentary, and not even a sniff of anyone questioning anything. This particular claim is no small one, and would surely be dead easy to debunk if untrue.

 

[spitfire]

Is that really so? I’d be disappointed if that was the case. All the comments I’ve seen (which of course are proof of nothing) over his many videos have been pretty much 100% complimentary, and not even a sniff of anyone questioning anything. This particular claim is no small one, and would surely be dead easy to debunk if untrue.

I’ll try and dig some stuff up when I get back from my holiday but he’s regarded as sub history channel LCD history bunk by a lot of milhist types on teh Twitter.

 

[Hollis]

I found this ... can't say I've watched it and probably won't!



ETA: the comments below on this on YouTube are quite 'interesting'..

 

[T & P]

I found this ... can't say I've watched it and probably won't!



ETA: the comments below on this on YouTube are quite 'interesting'..

Haven’t watched the video yet (I definitely will, can’t now as watching something else with the missus), but very interesting, cheers.

I’d find it sad- even though I’m only been aware of Mark Felton for less than two weeks- if he turns out to be a fantasist. I would still find it hard to believe most of his videos turned out to be deliberately misleading or otherwise grossly negligent.

But I guess it’s not particularly improbable that someone who’ enjoyed some initial success and recognition for their documentary work revealing lesser known historical facts, might get wrapped up in it and starts to stretch the truth. More so if his documentaries are monetised and depend on clicks.

 

[mojo pixy]

This bloke has moved in to the place where I work. Among his stories, he says his scout car was parked by the Coliseum before the US army arrived in Rome in June 1944, and he was ordered to withdraw so the Americans could liberate Rome. True story, apparently!

 

[bcuster]

 

[spitfire]

3600 photo's of wartime England taken by the USAAF just been released.

Baseball and Bombers: USAAF Reconnaissance Photography During the Second World War | Historic England

The Historic England Archive’s USAAF Collection comprises over 20,000 photographic prints taken by USAAF photographic reconnaissance (PR) aircraft.

historicengland.org.uk

 

[bcuster]

With Speed and Agility, Germany’s Ar 234 Bomber Was a Success That Ultimately Failed

Only one is known to survive today and it is in the collections of the Smithsonian’s National Air and Space Museum.

getpocket.com

Arado Ar 234 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[spitfire]

I didn’t realise they’d made so many.

 

[spitfire]

I'm taking Mini Fire (11) on this walk. She is doing WW2 at school right now and is quite the font of knowledge to her class. No idea where she gets it from...

He doesn't usually do publicly bookable walks so a rare opportunity.

Dates

Blitzwalkers - WWII London Guided Walks

Specialists in London Wartime Guided Walks

www.blitzwalkers.co.uk

The meeting place is outside Farringdon Station, main entrance in Cowcross Street - I will be the tall person loitering between the entrance to the tube station and the Elizabeth Line/Thameslink entrance.

The walk commences at 10:30 and will take approximately 2 hours 45 minutes - it is very much a gentle stroll with frequent halts to look at various incidents from 29th December 1940, as well as V-1 and V-2 incidents and also a bit of the First World War too. The walk is illustrated with archive photos which invariably provide a "then and now" perspective, as well as period props that will come out from time to time and also many eye-witness personal accounts which help to bring the period to life.

The walk takes a circuitous route towards St Paul's Cathedral, which is where we finish. St Paul's Station, as well as City Thameslink and Farringdon are within easy walking distance.

The cost is £15 a head (U-16s go free) which can be paid with cash on the day, or in advance using PayPal or bank transfer.

 

[Idris2002]

The Spitfire that fell into German hands:

German Spitfire - The Story of Mk VB (EN830) | Classic Warbirds

Read the story of a Spitfire that was captured and tested against a Messerschmitt Bf 109 by the Luftwaffe during 1942 after crash landing in Jersey.

www.classicwarbirds.co.uk

 

[spitfire]

In an amazing coincidence I went to a German school.

True story.

 

[Idris2002]

In an amazing coincidence I went to a German school.

True story.

Genau, und auch - toll!

 

[spitfire]

This is a sad but fascinating story.

I thought my great-aunt was just a gentle oddball – then I discovered her secret role in the Austrian resistance

I always believed that my family had survived the Holocaust almost unscathed. But it turned out my great-aunt Malci had defied the Nazis - with tragic consequences

www.theguardian.com

 

[Hollis]

Just happened to come across this plaque in Bloomsbury.

 

[brogdale]

Was going to post this in the excellent Ghost Signs thread but realised it was a London- based thread.

A ghost sign that I've long been meaning to capture, at the old fire station in Fav. I've long been annoyed that people have been allowed to sign over it and, apparently, it has no preservation order or protection, but hey ho.

I've been aware of the sign for over 50 years and I'm still impressed that something ("Air Raid Shelter") that was hurriedly painted on a wall 84 years ago, when the reality of airborne total war became appreciated, is still there, perfectly legible.

 

[Smangus]

 

[T & P]

Watching the rather gripping film Greyhound, about a ship convoy trying to cross the Atlantic while being hunted by U-boats. The film is centred on one of the military ships escorting the convoy, and it suddenly dawned on me that I know little about the supply ships that carried the vital cargo to the UK, and the people who ran them.

Were they civilian-run ships? And if so, how much they paid the crew? Because sure as fuck I’d have to be offered a very substantial fee to take that job, even if I’d been unemployed for a long time…

 

[Hollis]

Watching the rather gripping film Greyhound, about a ship convoy trying to cross the Atlantic while being hunted by U-boats. The film is centred on one of the military ships escorting the convoy, and it suddenly dawned on me that I know little about the supply ships that carried the vital cargo to the UK, and the people who ran them.

Were they civilian-run ships? And if so, how much they paid the crew? Because sure as fuck I’d have to be offered a very substantial fee to take that job, even if I’d been unemployed for a long time…

Read Jonathan Dimbleby's book 'The Battle of the Atlantic' a couple years ago - it's a great read, though I know the general consensus among historians is the Battle of the Atlantic wasn't really as close as is sometimes made out.

The ships were all crewed by Merchant Navy..

I have been following the reviews for 'Masters of the Air'... seem fairly mixed, but still looking foward to it..

 

[spitfire]

Loved Greyhound, some absolute nonsense in it but agreed, gripping.

The UK contingent was Merchant Navy, many other countries sent ships but I don't know a whole lot about it in truth, I must rectify this. It is probably one of, if not, the most important battle of the war.

Merchant Navy (United Kingdom) - Wikipedia

The memorial at Tower Hill is sobering. So many ships and sailors.

Tower Hill Memorial | Cemetery Details | CWGC

HISTORY INFORMATION​

In the First World War, the civilian navy's duty was to be the supply service of the Royal Navy, to transport troops and supplies to the armies, to transport raw materials to overseas munitions factories and munitions from those factories, to maintain, on a reduced scale, the ordinary import and export trade, to supply food to the home country and - in spite of greatly enlarged risks and responsibilities - to provide both personnel and ships to supplement the existing resources of the Royal Navy.

Losses of vessels were high from the outset, but had peaked in 1917 when in January the German government announced the adoption of "unrestricted submarine warfare". The subsequent preventative measures introduced by the Ministry of Shipping - including the setting up of the convoy system where warships were used to escort merchant vessels - led to a decrease in losses but by the end of the war, 3,305 merchant ships had been lost with a total of 17,000 lives.

In the Second World War, losses were again considerable in the early years, reaching a peak in 1942. The heaviest losses were suffered in the Atlantic, but convoys making their way to Russia around the North Cape, and those supplying Malta in the Mediterranean were also particularly vulnerable to attack. In all, 4,786 merchant ships were lost during the war with a total of 32,000 lives. More than one quarter of this total were lost in home waters.

The First World War section of the Tower Hill Memorial commemorates almost 12,000 Mercantile Marine casualties who have no grave but the sea. The memorial was designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens with sculpture by Sir William Reid-Dick. It was unveiled by Queen Mary on 12 December 1928.

The Second World War extension, which commemorates almost 24,000 casualties, was designed by Sir Edward Maufe, with sculpture by Charles Wheeler. It was unveiled by Queen Elizabeth II on 5 November 1955.

 

[spitfire]

Read Jonathan Dimbleby's book 'The Battle of the Atlantic' a couple years ago - it's a great read, though I know the general consensus among historians is the Battle of the Atlantic wasn't really as close as is sometimes made out.

The ships were all crewed by Merchant Navy..

Interesting, same said about BoB nowadays as well.

That was the book I was trying to remember what it was called. Will buy.

edit: ebay - £3.50 yoink.

 

[T & P]

Read Jonathan Dimbleby's book 'The Battle of the Atlantic' a couple years ago - it's a great read, though I know the general consensus among historians is the Battle of the Atlantic wasn't really as close as is sometimes made out.

The ships were all crewed by Merchant Navy..

I have been following the reviews for 'Masters of the Air'... seem fairly mixed, but still looking foward to it..

Cheers! I’ve just bought and downloaded it on your recommendation

 

[Elpenor]

On that very subject I’ve just been round the excellent Western Approaches museum in Liverpool today. How they plotted the routes of convoys and protected them from u boats. The massive underground operations room in particular was very impressive.

Shockingly the arctic convoy veterans didn’t receive a medal for their efforts until 2012, the Russian government had wanted to give them one for years but the British blocked them.