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World War II

The39thStep said:
The above statement from Harris reminded me that one of the curious things about Dresden and other bombings of residential areas is that not only was public reaction mixed but the Air Ministry felt that they needed to present the aims and outcomes of these bombing raids as something slightly different.

Harris believed that “any civilian who produces more than enough to maintain himself is making a positive contribution to the German war effort and is therefore a proper though not necessarily a worthwhile object of attack".

He also wanted the Air Ministry to make a statement outlining the true aims of the bombing strategy :
" The destruction of German cities, the killing of German workers and the disruption of civilised community life throughout Germany’ would emphasise that such outcomes were ‘not by-products of attempts to hit factories’ and that ‘Acreages of housing devastation are infinitely more important’ as a measure of the bombers success rather than the destruction of industry"

The Air Ministry's response was :

"It is in any event, desirable to present the bomber offensive in such a light as to provoke the minimum of public controversy and so far as possible to avoid conflict with religious and humanitarian opinion. Any public protest, whether reasonable or unreasonable against the bomber offensive could not but hamper the Government in the execution of their policy and might affect the morale of the aircrew themselves. 7. The Council are therefore unwilling to change the emphasis of their publicity."

The position of the Air Ministry was that it's press releases and statements should always emphasise the military and industrial significance of targets that were bombed within the area. They knew though that by publishing photographs, newspapers writing articles, and foreign press reports not subject to the UK's press restrictions is that it was obvious that civilians were being killed on a large scale. Their strategy was how this should be presented.

Public reaction actually wasn't as gung ho as the post war enthusiasts imagine it was. Out of 154 Mass Observation Diaries, only 13 wrote anything on the bombing raids in Germany, on average six entries and the responses were mixed .
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Kind of interesting... if it's anything like the Blitz they knew that they could only stretch propaganda so far... otherwise people would just see through it.

Regarding Dresden, in terms of public sentiment, it's hard to imagine what it would be like in the 6th year of a war, when around 9,000 people were being killed by V bombs in London, and when most people probably still had servicemen and women in their families that they wanted to get home.
 
T & P said:

Just reading about the 500 kg WWII bomb recently discovered buried in Plymouth, being very carefully moved to sea to be blown up. I am now left with a morbid desire to learn in detail about the damage one such bomb would have caused on a typical British street/ neighbourhood. Are there any articles out there on the subject, or even online calculation tools similar to those on websites about the effects of a nuclear explosion?
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There was a Tony Robinson thing on TV, might have been called 'Blitz' - it did different sized explosions in/next to a row of houses. It was interesting - coz there was lots of other stuff as well - the bomb stuff was illustrative but a bit flawed because it was explosive wrapped in cardboard so didn't have some of the really destructive effects like shrapnel and ground heave caused by penetration.

Worth a looksie though.
 
kebabking said:
There was a Tony Robinson thing on TV, might have been called 'Blitz' - it did different sized explosions in/next to a row of houses. It was interesting - coz there was lots of other stuff as well - the bomb stuff was illustrative but a bit flawed because it was explosive wrapped in cardboard so didn't have some of the really destructive effects like shrapnel and ground heave caused by penetration.

Worth a looksie though.
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Oh yeah. That was an interesting programme.

Also because it wasn’t just about the East End cor blimey stone the crows they bombed the rose and crown etc.

Each episode was a different city. I seem to remember Liverpool Glasgow and Hull were featured.

All real places apparently. Who knew?
 
kebabking said:
There was a Tony Robinson thing on TV, might have been called 'Blitz' - it did different sized explosions in/next to a row of houses. It was interesting - coz there was lots of other stuff as well - the bomb stuff was illustrative but a bit flawed because it was explosive wrapped in cardboard so didn't have some of the really destructive effects like shrapnel and ground heave caused by penetration.

Worth a looksie though.
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Cheers. I watched that and it was interesting, they were hampered by the local authority or perhaps the police from detonating the biggest charge they’d intended. I also found the fact that they were using the same buildings for all the explosions not very scientific. By the time they blew up the largest charge the buildings were already wrecked from the previous smaller detonations. But yes, worth a watch.
 
Interesting documentary exploding the myth of the Norden bombsight.
 
Monte said:
Interesting documentary exploding the myth of the Norden bombsight.
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Haven’t watched this yet but I must say I was surprised when it got introduced to Masters of the Air as one if the deciding technologies of WWII. I don’t recall it being mentioned in any of the countless documentaries I’ve watched over the years, let alone being described as a game changer.
 
T & P said:
Haven’t watched this yet but I must say I was surprised when it got introduced to Masters of the Air as one if the deciding technologies of WWII. I don’t recall it being mentioned in any of the countless documentaries I’ve watched over the years, let alone being described as a game changer.
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I know at the time it was sold as a game changer and would revolutionise targeting but I don't think there's been much nostalgia for it or evidence it was.
 
My grandad managed to get into the Merchant Navy as he was too young for the Royal Navy when war broke out. He never liked to talk about it too much and got on with his life afterwards. He said he never understood those who walked around wearing berets or blazers with badges on afterwards and had contempt for those who used military titles in civilian life. He was at D-Day in charge of one of the small boats that ferried injured soldiers back to the hospital ships lying offshore and must obviously have seen some pretty horrific sights. He also served in the Far East by which time he'd been trained as an anti-aircraft gunner. One story he did tell my gran, which she then told me, was that during one air raid he turned around to speak to his loader only to see the guy there with his head completely missing. There wasn't even a part of it anywhere, it had just disappeared.
 
Artaxerxes said:
I know at the time it was sold as a game changer and would revolutionise targeting but I don't think there's been much nostalgia for it or evidence it was.
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It wasn't even the best bomb sight.
The propaganda surrounding it was necessary to sell the USAAF strategic bombing tactic.
It simply didn't work and a lot of airmen died having never got close to winning the war through air power alone.
Nor was it secret, the Germans had the plans for it in 1938 and decided it wasn't worth the trouble of copying it.
The RAF turned it down.
It did make a lot of money for Norden though.
 
Hollis said:
Kind of interesting... if it's anything like the Blitz they knew that they could only stretch propaganda so far... otherwise people would just see through it.

Regarding Dresden, in terms of public sentiment, it's hard to imagine what it would be like in the 6th year of a war, when around 9,000 people were being killed by V bombs in London, and when most people probably still had servicemen and women in their families that they wanted to get home.
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Thanks Hollis I too found your post kind of interesting.

From the summaries of Mass Observation diaries those who wrote about Bomber Command activities, which was around 17% of diaries, submitted very few calls for reprisals. It was far more of what you mention of wanting to get the war over and in many senses the responses are simply facts ie number of planes involved or numbers of bombs dropped and are unemotional.

A quite unexpected response to Dresden was in fact Churchill's. Dresden signalled his withdrawal of support for such tactics, he was concerned about the reputational risk to both himself and the country of terror bombing. Subsequently, he didn't award Harris or Bomber Command campaign medals instead they received a Home Defence Medal.
 
Yes, Churchill couldn't distance himself quick enough. And the impression I get is that other than 'clinical' Dambusters raid, Bomber Command and aircrew were largely treated like 2nd/3rd class veterans until probably the late 90s/2000s.. The Bomber Command Memorial was finally opened in 2012 and a clasp awarded in 2013, thanks to the efforts of surviving veterans.

An interesting if quirky book on bombing is 'A History of Bombing' by Sven Lindqvist... it's a mixture of culture and military history from First World War onwards, and very good..

Probably one of my favourite SWW books is 'No Moon Tonight' by Don Charlwood... an Australian navigator who flew with Bomber Command.

Might have posted this before... but this is an incredible listen:

BBC Radio 4 - Archive on 4, Bombing Berlin
 
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Puddy_Tat said:
it's still there, but it's struggling to load. not sure if it's not well, or too many people using it.



one of my (now retired) colleagues a while ago used to do a fair bit of travel in europe, especially when he was still a railway employee and got cheap travel. he apparently once got in to conversation with a german railwayman about east london, and he (the german) obviously knew the area. colleague said 'you've spent some time there?' to which the answer was 'only from the air'
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Probably apocryphal, but I like it anyway:

"A British Airways pilot was landing in Frankfurt. He had already been warned by his fellow pilots that the ground traffic controllers in Frankfurt expected all the visiting pilots to be familiar with the location of gates, etc, but when he landed,there had been a gate change, so he stopped monetarily on the apron to consult his map.
His radio crackled and the ground controller came on: "British Airways 1342, vot are you doink?". The pilot answered back he was consulting his map. The ground controller snapped back: "Haf you never been to Frankfurt before?". The pilot calmly replied: "Yes, twice in 1945, but it was dark and I didn't have to land"."
 
"We have ways of making you talk" have an excellent episode on Dresden which I've just had a listen to (insomnia..). It's an extended interview with Tammy Davis Biddle.... And really good on context of the bombing and brutalising effects of war.

 
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It's a great podcast series in general, just hard to get into when you see there are 9e+76 episodes of it.
 
I read this one over the summer, and I've been meaning to post about it since:
IMG_20240310_134327~2.jpg

That's "Derry"as in "Derryng-do". He escaped from a moving train and got to Rome just as Monsignor O'Flaherty was setting up his escapers organisation. It contains this example of the ancient cordiality between the Anglo-Saxon and the Gael:


IMG_20240310_134406.jpg

It's funny if you do it in the accents. For Derry and O'Flaherty it was no laughing matter:

IMG_20240310_134415~2.jpg

This one is really good - worth looking out for, I'd say.
 
Idris2002 said:
I read this one over the summer, and I've been meaning to post about it since:
View attachment 415407

That's "Derry"as in "Derryng-do". He escaped from a moving train and got to Rome just as Monsignor O'Flaherty was setting up his escapers organisation. It contains this example of the ancient cordiality between the Anglo-Saxon and the Gael:


View attachment 415404

It's funny if you do it in the accents. For Derry and O'Flaherty it was no laughing matter:

View attachment 415406

This one is really good - worth looking out for, I'd say.
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DotCommunist said:
just picked up an .epub here:

Download The Rome Escape Line File PDF

Read & Download PDF The Rome Escape Line File Free, Update the latest version with high-quality. Try NOW!
zlibrary.to zlibrary.to
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Brilliant stuff, thanks both. :)
 
T & P said:
Haven’t watched this yet but I must say I was surprised when it got introduced to Masters of the Air as one if the deciding technologies of WWII. I don’t recall it being mentioned in any of the countless documentaries I’ve watched over the years, let alone being described as a game changer.
Click to expand...
An easier to watch, more entertaining video about the myth of the Norden bombsight and the lie of strategic bombing.
 
Hollis said:
Yes, Churchill couldn't distance himself quick enough. And the impression I get is that other than 'clinical' Dambusters raid, Bomber Command and aircrew were largely treated like 2nd/3rd class veterans until probably the late 90s/2000s.. The Bomber Command Memorial was finally opened in 2012 and a clasp awarded in 2013, thanks to the efforts of surviving veterans.

An interesting if quirky book on bombing is 'A History of Bombing' by Sven Lindqvist... it's a mixture of culture and military history from First World War onwards, and very good..

Probably one of my favourite SWW books is 'No Moon Tonight' by Don Charlwood... an Australian navigator who flew with Bomber Command.

Might have posted this before... but this is an incredible listen:

BBC Radio 4 - Archive on 4, Bombing Berlin
Click to expand...
It was Churchill’s distancing from Dresden in particular that was the crunch . Despite that my father was in Bomber Command and received his DFC in 1945 for bravery whilst serving in 77 squadron in 1944 . He was in several squadrons during the war and flew a variety of aircraft . I have his DFC and a list of missions from July 1944 but my sister had his log book . She unfortunately died very recently and although I’ve asked my brother in law to see if he can find it I’ll just have to keep my fingers crossed .
 
The39thStep said:
It was Churchill’s distancing from Dresden in particular that was the crunch . Despite that my father was in Bomber Command and received his DFC in 1945 for bravery whilst serving in 77 squadron in 1944 . He was in several squadrons during the war and flew a variety of aircraft . I have his DFC and a list of missions from July 1944 but my sister had his log book . She unfortunately died very recently and although I’ve asked my brother in law to see if he can find it I’ll just have to keep my fingers crossed .
Click to expand...

I am sorry to hear of the death of your sister. My condolences.
 
Chz said:
It's a great podcast series in general, just hard to get into when you see there are 9e+76 episodes of it.
Click to expand...

Tbh - I've probably listened to five or six of them, but they've always been very good... Probably the best way is to just dip into topics you're interested in.
 
A post on twitter re Normandy historians bunfight has got me reading Robin Neilands "The Battle for Normandy".

Good insight into military planning here:

Monty’s military assistant, was helping his chief prepare for the first presentation of plans on April 7, 1944, eight weeks before D-Day, he asked Montgomery where the phase lines should be drawn between D-Day and D plus 90?

Monty replied, ‘Well, it doesn’t matter, Kit – draw them where you like’.

‘Shall I draw them equally, Sir?’, asked Dawnay.

‘Yes, that’ll do’, replied Montgomery.
 
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