World economy fundamentally unsound?

[Rich Lyon]

The energy supply has begun to contract (total liquids production is 1.53 million barrels per day lower than in July 2006). There is no evidence to suggest that this contraction is reversible.

The world economy is driven by capitalism. At the core of most flavours of capitalism is the concept of the extraction of value from surpluses and shortages, mediated by a market economy.

When considering the soundness of the world economy, therefore, a reasonable question to ask is whether surpluses can arise, shortages can be met, value can be extracted and the market economy can continue to function in the absence of a continuously expanding energy supply.

Without an incremental unit of energy there can be no surplus, no demand that creates a shortage, no manufactured commodity to fulfill a shortage and there is no price at which a shortage can be fulfilled and therefore no market.

Capitalists and economists can talk all day about the wonderful things that happen when shortages and surpluses arising *within* the matter/energy system from energy imbalances created by an expanding energy supply are mediated by a market economy under the unique condition that each incremental unit of energy to do so is available.

They have nothing to say - and can have nothing to say, for lack of any experience - about what happens when the matter/energy system itself suffers an energy shortage.

In my view, capitalism is on the verge of failure, and the world economy is fundamentally unsound.

On the bright side, it should put an end once and for all to all the whining from the socialist mob, and that will be a relief.

 

[JoePolitix]

The players are the working class. I thought you were some sort of marxist? The old left thought (and some still clearly think) that *they* were though.

I didn't understand the relevance of the remark in response to an interpretation of Negri, particularly as fanciful's point seemed to be arguing pricisly for the centrality of the working class, particularly the proletariat.

At any rate if anybody gave up on the working class it's obscurantist anarcho-Maoist wankers like Negri who prattle on about "the multitude" and such like.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Pretty much everything you post about the different between your group and the other trots points to this.

Or maybe it's just your pre-conceived ideas, because that's not what we're saying.

 

[durruti02]

getting away from negri ( as quickly as poss!)

the Northern Rock meltdown is being joined by Citigroup!

and oil about to hit highs last seen before last serious recession ..

good articles in new Mute magazine about debt and in aufheben about china and their role

 

[cockneyrebel]

Article on this here:

http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1762

 

[urbanrevolt]

and here
http://www.permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1722

 

[treelover]

In todays Guardian and Independent there is speculation a very big bank is in trouble, is that Citigroup, i do think we are in for troubled times,

 

[urbanrevolt]

Well in the words of the Sinatra song that a bank I beleive once used in its advert, there may be trouble ahead.

However, while profit rates are still high for capitalists all the ideas that capitalism is right now in crisis are not only of much use to socialists but potentially deflect from the urgent tasks of rebuilding networks ofd resistance amongst the working class.

Capitalism is by its nature anti-working class and crisis prone- that's useful to acknowledge but we on the left have to face up to the scale of the tasks ahead. We have to face the music before we dance!

When the Unison bureacracy can call off a striek despite a majproty of those voting voting for it, when the turnout is so low and the rank and file hardly organised at all and what small organisations there are being largely isolated we have urgent work to do.
Not least using the inspring Manchester health workers' strike to argue for wider support and action.

 

[durruti02]

In todays Guardian and Independent there is speculation a very big bank is in trouble, is that Citigroup, i do think we are in for troubled times,

yes it is citigroup but how bad i do not know .. they claim assets of $2.5 trillion i.e. $2.5 thousend billion so the $5 or $6 billion writedowns as in sept is not really serious .. if it were 100s of billions, which apparrently they do have tied up in these wierd financial vehicles, then it would be ..

It does all seem pretty serious

http://www.forbes.com/home/wallstre...p-banking-credit-biz-wall-cx_lm_1102citi.html

 

[durruti02]

Well in the words of the Sinatra song that a bank I beleive once used in its advert, there may be trouble ahead.

However, while profit rates are still high for capitalists all the ideas that capitalism is right now in crisis are not only of much use to socialists but potentially deflect from the urgent tasks of rebuilding networks ofd resistance amongst the working class.

Capitalism is by its nature anti-working class and crisis prone- that's useful to acknowledge but we on the left have to face up to the scale of the tasks ahead. We have to face the music before we dance!

When the Unison bureacracy can call off a striek despite a majproty of those voting voting for it, when the turnout is so low and the rank and file hardly organised at all and what small organisations there are being largely isolated we have urgent work to do.
Not least using the inspring Manchester health workers' strike to argue for wider support and action.

fair enough .. but it is all pretty interesting to see the system unravelling ( or not)

 

[durruti02]

its getting worse!

"November 8 2007: 8:21 AM EST NEW YORK (Fortune) --

What the heck's happening to our financial system?

That will be a question many people will be asking after Washington Mutual shares plunged 17 percent in a single day. This after all is an industry-leading bank with over $320 billion in assets"

http://money.cnn.com/2007/11/07/mag...ttwo.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2007110808

 

[mk12]

while profit rates are still high for capitalists all the ideas that capitalism is right now in crisis are not only of much use to socialists but potentially deflect from the urgent tasks of rebuilding networks ofd resistance amongst the working class.

I reckon most people on the left (anarchists, socialists, left labourites) all believe that rebuilding "networks of resistance amongst the working class" is a priority, regardless of their view on the world economy. I doubt you'd find any person who claims they are "left wing" who opposed this idea.

 

[urbanrevolt]

I expect mk is really after a link to a PR article? New one here http://permanentrevolution.net/?view=entry&entry=1774

However, just in case not I'll give part of an answer below
Well you may be right in theory but I don't see a lot of it happening in practice- partly because we are in a very low period of class struggle in which the union bureacracy sits on and stifles resistance e.g. CWU bureacracy snatching defeat from the jaws of victory- unless the CWU rank and file can organise enough forces for a no vote- but the wildcat strikes that could have won have been called off meanhile.

Or Unison bureacrats preventing Karen Reissmann from speaking at the NHS demo

We've got a lot of basioc work to do or we're all pretty much f--d as far as I can see.

So if there's such agreement on it then let's see someone take the initiative.

 

[mk12]

I would have a guess that the Anarchist Federation, Class War, the SWP, The Socialist Party, the AWL, all non-aligned leftists, the Communist Party, those on the left of the Labour Party all agree that "urgent tasks of rebuilding networks ofd resistance amongst the working class" is of primary importance. Do you not think these groups are trying to build this, in their own ways?

 

[durruti02]

I would have a guess that the Anarchist Federation, Class War, the SWP, The Socialist Party, the AWL, all non-aligned leftists, the Communist Party, those on the left of the Labour Party all agree that "urgent tasks of rebuilding networks ofd resistance amongst the working class" is of primary importance. Do you not think these groups are trying to build this, in their own ways?

actually i just want to keep looking at the dollar falling, oil prices rising,US house builders and banks go tits up and City boys getting put out of work! and i've given up work and dropped the shop steward and community stuff to do this!!

( though we need to talk about how we going to reclaim all the buy to let property they have amassed! )

 

[urbanrevolt]

Well very little that I can see. SWP - organising fighting unions- good intitiative in theory and probably generates a lot of potential contacts but all the meetings are is top table heavy rallies with a short part for contributions and no time for practical organising.

SP played a role in RMT initiated shop stewards network but fairly limited- regional meetings taking ages to get off ground etc.

Let's be concrete- a key stike now is the Reissmann one. From this there is an opportunity for real co-operation and united work to revive or form for the first time rank and file networks. How di we get started?

 

[durruti02]

Well very little that I can see. SWP - organising fighting unions- good intitiative in theory and probably generates a lot of potential contacts but all the meetings are is top table heavy rallies with a short part for contributions and no time for practical organising.

SP played a role in RMT initiated shop stewards network but fairly limited- regional meetings taking ages to get off ground etc.

Let's be concrete- a key stike now is the Reissmann one. From this there is an opportunity for real co-operation and united work to revive or form for the first time rank and file networks. How di we get started?

half agree but wrong thread?? started new one

 

[mk12]

What about their involvment in issues such as defend council housing, keep our NHS public, stop the war, Unite against Fascism etc etc. Let alone day to day workplace matters. Do you really think all the Socialist Party members do is go to a shop stewards network conference once a year?

 

[urbanrevolt]

No but I'm not having a go I'm just saying as a fairly active trade unionist I see little evidence of it. If you can point to specific intiatives to organsie and co-ordinate the greate deal of action taken on by a very small minority of people fair enough- may be durruti's right start new thread. I'll look for it.

 

[mk12]

No but I'm not having a go I'm just saying as a fairly active trade unionist I see little evidence of it. If you can point to specific intiatives to organsie and co-ordinate the greate deal of action taken on by a very small minority of people fair enough- may be durruti's right start new thread. I'll look for it.

Not everything is on the internet. Day to day work in the workplace isn't usually broadcast on a webpage. And every little helps.

 

[urbanrevolt]

yeah but still conenections need to be made- whethe ron internet, phone,meetings or whatever. Anyway I'm off th enet now till 2mr.

 

[mk12]

Connections come second place to organising at your place of work. Especially if that place of work is not organised in any shape or form.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Connections come second place to organising at your place of work. Especially if that place of work is not organised in any shape or form.

We need to organise in our workplaces? Well blow me down with a feather

And the point about left groups thinking that the system is in crisis is that it clearly does affect their activity and what they get involved with and on what political basis.

Marx spent a fair amount of time commenting on what was going on in the economy for that reason.

 

[mk12]

And the point about left groups thinking that the system is in crisis is that it clearly does affect their activity and what they get involved with and on what political basis.

That's my point though. I disagree.

 

[cockneyrebel]

That's my point though. I disagree.

You might disagree but groups like the SWP and SP openly say that their take on the economy has an affect on their tactics and what stuff they prioritise.

 

[dennisr]

You might disagree but groups like the SWP and SP openly say that their take on the economy has an affect on their tactics and what stuff they prioritise.

You are really trying to pull a rabbit out of your arse with this slightly ridiculous balderdash arn't you?

and urban's 'insight' into the work being carried out in the trade unions by the SP makes me giggle - I mean the unconcious arrogance of a member of PR critising the 'lack of activity'...

 

[cockneyrebel]

You are really trying to pull a rabbit out of your arse with this slightly ridiculous balderdash arn't you?

That's a bit much!! But don't see why. SP documents at your conferences are full of stuff about the economic situation and how that will affect working class struggle in the period ahead. Surely that has some affect on the SPs tactics and how they will relate to current conditions of working class struggle? If it has no relevance then I don't really see why the SP would bother commenting on it at such length.

and urban's 'insight' into the work being carried out in the trade unions by the SP makes me giggle - I mean the unconcious arrogance of a member of PR critising the 'lack of activity'...

I don't think it matters if urban is a member of PR or not in terms of what is going on in the trade unions. He is one of the most active trade unionists I know and on top of that does a lot in local community campaigns.

 

[dennisr]

That's a bit much!! But don't see why. SP documents at your conferences are full of stuff about the economic situation and how that will affect working class struggle in the period ahead. Surely that has some affect on the SPs tactics and how they will relate to current conditions of working class struggle? If it has no relevance then I don't really see why the SP would bother commenting on it at such length.

Thanks for the 'insight'. So the SPs view of the economy means it simply goes to NSSN meetings on occasion? (as mk12 asked) - of course not.

What a fecking joke - trying to pretend PRs 'big difference' with the rest of the 'catastrophist' (your term not trotskys) left - its view on the economy is what shapes its 'correct' (your definition) position on how to build a revolutionary left (and ergo - the rest of the left, including the SPs 'wrong' position). What you spectacularly miss is that PR and its forbear WP never managed to achieve much beyond double figures in how many decades has it been now? Thats if we conveniently ignore the incomparable weight of the SPs influence (even if this is limited in the big scheme of things) to that of PR.

You really have got to be pulling my plonker with this twaddle, cr

I don't think it matters if urban is a member of PR or not in terms of what is going on in the trade unions. He is one of the most active trade unionists I know and on top of that does a lot in local community campaigns.

You miss the point (see above for the same point being spelt out). So what - you should get out and meet a few more active trade unionists who also 'know what is going on in the trade unions'.

 

[dennisr]

That's a bit much!!

Yes, the ridicolous assertion you came out with was definately 'a bit much' to swallow - jezeus

ps this little spat reminds me of your endless assertions as to the relative strengths of the various left groups - it went on for years with no reference to what is meant by actual 'strengths' beyond bald (and invariably wrong...) membership figures - I am afraid I have got to say 'equally clueless' I am afraid

 

[cockneyrebel]

I didn't see anything about NSSN meetings on this thread my comments weren't in relation to that. I don't even get why you're getting so pissed off I apologise if it seems I was having a dig, wasn't my intention.

And I've never said PR is correct on everything, I'm 100% we're not. But that doesn't mean I think we can't be right on some things (I think we have got it right on the economy, but again, I could be totally wrong). As for size of groups, in many ways you're right, unless ideas have influence at some point then there isn't any point. But there are many CWI groups that have remained tiny for 20-30 years and I'm sure you wouldn't tell them to just give up. The same for the IWCA.

On the unions I think urbans point was that the far left is extremely weak and rank and file movements are almost non-existant in most unions and that needs to be rebuilt. I guess it is a statement of the obvious, but still needs saying, especially as in reality not that much is being done.

As for the membership figures, I didn't comment on it that much. It was more that chuck turned it into a piss take. But it doesn't matter.

Not gonna comment any further on this debate but don't see the need for the digs. I didn't mean any offense by my comments and as you know I have a lot of time and respect for many SP activists and do joint work with them.

Have a good weekend mate