Workers Power response to SWP open letter
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dylans
overlord of all acorns
Personally, I thought both the SWP open letter and WPs reply were good and deserve to be taken seriously. All the sectarian bile that has greeted it is what I find sad.
Perhaps those who have attacked them with the usual knee jerk predictability could explain why the call for a workers party is so amusing. (genuine request)
However, I would like to know WPs position on the Labour Party too.
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
To be fair I thought the SWP thing was pretty good. Haven't read all WPs.
I wish the left luck with the next attempt at unity. I will continue to contribute to CoTL but find the Greens to be less factional, less fetishistic, less apologetic about Labour, more progressive and more potentially popular with people.
There we go, I dont want to go slagging people off but any "left" organisation that appeases Labour in any way can't claim to be very credible.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
I'd never really payed any attention to Workers Power, but after looking at this thread thought I would read over there site and found this gem.
More catastrophic then starving to death? I'm not fan of the greed of capatilism, but I'd choose it any day then living in a shit hole like N Korea.
If this is the best "the left" can do, we're fucked.
More catastrophic then starving to death? I'm not fan of the greed of capatilism, but I'd choose it any day then living in a shit hole like N Korea.
If this is the best "the left" can do, we're fucked.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
In what way are they "appeasing labour"?
taffboy gwyrdd
Embrace the confusion!
Certainly PR tell members to vote for them. I think WP are the same. I was on a platform in the last Generals when an SWP candidate did likewise. So it's more than appeasing, it's outright endorsement.
Permenant Revolution? Permenant Reactionary Toss more like.
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Ok. If they are still calling for a vote for labour then I completely disagree. Labour is a dead end for the left now. Dead and rotting. I just want to be sure that this is actually their position. I know it was 10 years ago but that was a different time entirely.
Who are Permanent Revolution? I know that used to be their theoretical journal. Did they split or something? (sorry, I've been away for a while and am a little out of date on this stuff)
Do any of their members or supporters post on here?
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
In the eighties there was a similar call of unity. The membership, who weren't consulted, were expected to deliver this message.
As a result of being ignored the SWP had some pissed off members. As far as I'm aware, there was never any reply either.
It's understandable why activists choose independence.
Prince Rhyus
Spokesman of King Antonio
....yawn...revolution happening yet...?...no?...?[goes back to sleep...]
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Do you know anyone who is from or have you ever been to North Korea, do you think the condition of North Koreans would be better if the U.S. orchaestrated some sort of Velvet Revolution there.?
Have the conditions of people in East Germany, working class people in Poland, Bulgaria etc. or Russia progressed.
NO
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
that's right, we should self censor what we actually believe.
A shame the Nazis' don't have the same sensibilities.
TremulousTetra
prismatic universe
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
No I think the US should leave well alone, because I don't think that they are intrested in improving the lot of the people who live there. Any interference would be for their own ends, like in Iraq and Afgan.
However the stories of the people who live who managed to escape don't sound to nice.
wiki said:
Most Polish people I've spoken to seem to think so.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Depends what definition of middle class you use I suppose. Can you clarify which one your using before we go any further?
Do you disagree with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch about what's happened in North Korea? Just because you're opposed to a regime doesn't mean that you support its enemies.
Do you disagree with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch about what's happened in North Korea? Just because you're opposed to a regime doesn't mean that you support its enemies.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
I in no way consider North Korea's Human Rights Record to be exemplary by any standards, or its economic policies.
As far as Human Rights Watch goes, which as far as I am aware is an American organisation set up to monitor the collapse of the Soviet Bloc, is sponsored by and is an NGO. Yes I can expect their findings would be biased.
Not sure about Amnesty, who on the whole are more objective. However recently they have been involved in the establishment of International Criminal Court, who seem only interested in prosecuting countries whose foreign policies do not comply with western interests.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
I'm not saying that these people are 'aspiring middle class' out of a sense of inverted snobbery.
Just that taking a proportion of a migrant population does not give a full synopsis of the conditions of a peoples(for a better word).
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
So you don't think that Workers Power look like a bit of a tit supporting their planned economy then?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
You dolt.
Are the BNP "Nazis"? Are their ranks comprised of people who follow the ideology of National Socialism?
Of course they're not. They may have a small percentage of Hitler-worshippers in their hierarchy, but that's about the only connection.
What they are is fascists. Better to call them by their proper name rather than using emotive hyperbole that's so eminently and easily disputable.
What you believe doesn't matter worth a cup of cold piss. Fact is what is important, although perhaps not for cultists.
Why aren't I surprised at you using a non-argument?A shame the Nazis' don't have the same sensibilities.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Not so good for miners or people who work in the shipping industries of Gdansk etc. where Solidarity started
You're talking about different things, though. You can either talk about progress as experienced by different social classes, or in sectors of the economy, but to conflate the two is pointless.
UnderOpenSky
baseline neural therapy
Don't know what else to go from then really, most things I've read say that Poland is a nicer place and this has been backed up by speaking to the Polish people I've met.
I'm not saying that life is better for everyone, but if its better for the majority, then I consider it an improvement. That's not to say it can't be better either or course.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Yes.
I think that Workers Power, if they did say this, fail to see the almost semi-feudalistic power dynamics that exist within the leading tendencies in North Korean Communist Party. And while discussing any regime like this, or similar to it, should always point out a need for greater democratisation and worker/peasant control.
However they are correct, in my opinion to defend them against western imperialism on all levels, especially culturally and economically.
To get back on topic, as I pointed out earlier both Workers Power and AWL took similar line to SWP on Lindsey Dispute. And almost diametrically Perm. Rev. & The Commume smaller splits from the two mentioned sects supported initiatives by socialists mainly in SP and to a lesser degree RESPECT.
The former are probably setting up this initiative for 'left unity' to counter the latter. The SWP has a record for disaster and sectarianism which I and many others have seen at first hand. Therefore I doubt that this call for a new left initiative will fall anywhere thereon stony ground, and if it did go anywhere would be counter to any left progressive cause.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Take your point, I apologise for creating any confusion on the subject confusion.
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
dylans
overlord of all acorns
Not so good for miners or people who work in the shipping industries of Gdansk etc. where Solidarity started
I don't think that's true is it? All the Poles that I have met (and I meet a few as part of my job as a language teacher) Are builders or semi- skilled workers in the construction industries. Aspiring middle class?
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Can't find any stats on subject that are relatively objective at the moment, however most can speak english, are well educated and aspire to be home owners and establish own business/middle class profession. This is not a bad thing but resembles a pattern in similar groups of immigrants.
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