Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[girasol]

Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.

But that's the thing... They aren't foreigners. Except so many people think they are.

 

[Dan U]

Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.

it's a bit like when they defended Brighton from that massive mosque

 

[cesare]

it's a bit like when they defended Brighton from that massive mosque

The Pavilion?

 

[2hats]

While I agree with the thrust of your point, it's not as simple as saying "if we stop this, they'll stop that", and it's certainly not an effective short term remedy to terrorist actions on the streets.

There will always be some extremists who think they can make a statement or influence events through violence but by removing a policy of dealing out arbitrary extra-judicial justice in the form of dealing out death and destruction from above (and other means) one can go a long way to cutting support from under the feet of such misanthropes. Rescinding freedoms both fuels them and drags one down to their level.

 

[scalyboy]

dp

 

[scalyboy]

This guy named the suspect last night in now deleted tweets. That name is now bring reported by the Sun. More confident this guy is legit now. searches also going on in Romford, where he said the guy was from.

Interesting discussion about one of the alleged killers on a Nigeria messageboard

 

[ddraig]

The Pavilion?

yup
and tommy robinson complaining about islamification of twitter because of the pic of the Taj Mahal when you log in

 

[Lord Camomile]

I don't really get your point here.

It's not about the ease with which it can be done, but the motivation to actually do it. My point is that if there are a bunch of these guys out there prepared to do shit like this and such attacks become more frequent, civil liberties are going out the window.

To be honest, I kinda lost my point halfway through. I think I just took exception to your use of the word "jihadi" and your allusion to "a wider, more sinister outfit". It doesn't necessarily have to be either of those things, could be just one person, trying to make a point, and going about it in a misguided and tragic way.

And the supplementary point that, even with that threat, I'd be very uncomfortable with any power, state or otherwise, trying to exercise more control over this or any other population.

 

[Spymaster]

As for "a new sort of terrorism", you are right that its virtually impossible to guard against (lets face it people stab and chop each other up for usually daft non-political reasons on occasion in London already) but I doubt that it would lead to a wider trend of attacks - as that schoolteacher apparently said to one of the suspects, there are more of us than there is of them, they would lose.

Why wouldn't it become a trend?

These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.

And it's easy. All that's needed are a couple of choppers and the motivation to do it.

 

[Dan U]

The Pavilion?

yeah, that's it

 

[Lord Camomile]

These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.

Possibly shouldn't admit this, but I've thought similar for a long time. No grand statements, just random killings in fairly unremarkable locations. Would certainly worry that the public would get very jittery and suspicious of each other very quickly.

But again, that threat's always been there, and there have always be lone singles or small groups of people who go out and kill. Personally I think a major way to combat this would be to not create an atmosphere that breeds and/or 'rewards' this kind of attitude.

 

[stowpirate]

I don't know if anybody has picked up on this?

"The Foreign Office warns of a high threat from terrorism in the West African nation and raises the prospect of a risk of retaliatory attacks following the French intervention in Mali."

I seem to recall the RAF was giving the French logistic air support. Might in some way be linked to this?

 

[agricola]

Why wouldn't it become a trend?

These guys have got the worlds attention just as much as any other terrorist actions. If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.

And it's easy. All that's needed are a couple of choppers and the motivation to do it.

It wouldnt though - after a few weeks the media wouldnt report on it to the extent that they have done with this, it would become routine in the same way that the deaths of UK service personnel in Afganistan have been, or IRA bombings / shootings used to be in the 80s. Theres also the point that after a few attacks (or indeed as soon as they started to target members of the public) people would fight back - and all the places you identify are stockpiled with potential weapons that could be used to do so.

 

[where to]

Interesting discussion about one of the alleged killers on a Nigeria messageboard

The tweets on page one of that were from last night but he's now deleted them.

I see the Mail has an article naming the same suspect as Abu nusaybah named last night. The Police have turned up at his parents rather nice house in Lincolnshire too so this all ties up.

"Spoilt middle class black boy with too much time on his hands" says one on that Nigerian thread...

 

[treelover]

He makes an uncomfortable point though.

If this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.

So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.

So, why are the DWP requesting records of claimants's Xbox live usage, state security?

 

[Spymaster]

So, why are the DWP requesting records of claimants's Xbox live usage, state security?

No. To stitch people up, silly.

 

[g force]

It wouldnt though - after a few weeks the media wouldnt report on it to the extent that they have done with this, it would become routine in the same way that the deaths of UK service personnel in Afganistan have been, or IRA bombings / shootings used to be in the 80s. Theres also the point that after a few attacks (or indeed as soon as they started to target members of the public) people would fight back - and all the places you identify are stockpiled with potential weapons that could be used to do so.

Depends on how they were done - this attack in Birmingham (alebit not quite what occured in London) was featured for about 1 min on the main BBC news when it occurred: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/02/birmingham-murder-racially-motivated-police

 

[Lord Camomile]

So, why are the DWP requesting records of claimants's Xbox live usage, state security?

FIFA.

Which is stupid, everyone knows Pro Evo is better.

 

[Ae589]

Why wouldn't it become a trend? If every week there were similar attacks on civilians in Sainsbury's, down the market, on a train, in the pub, the terror effect on the population would be far greater than folk flying planes into buildings once in a lifetime.

Assuming the perpetrators were caught/killed, it would be over fairly soon (I'm betting the number of people willing to do this is less than 50).

 

[Pickman's model]

The Pavilion?

used to be quite a nice pub just up the road from white city station

 

[Spymaster]

It wouldnt though - after a few weeks the media wouldnt report on it to the extent that they have done with this, it would become routine in the same way that the deaths of UK service personnel in Afganistan have been, or IRA bombings / shootings used to be in the 80s.

I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.

Theres also the point that after a few attacks (or indeed as soon as they started to target members of the public) people would fight back - and all the places you identify are stockpiled with potential weapons that could be used to do so.

It doesn't matter whether people fought back or not. The nature of these seemingly random attacks mean that they'll kill a few people in pretty much every case before they're stopped, and they don't care about dying.

Also, on the IRA thing in the 70s and 80s, the scope of their operations were generally limited by the desire of the operatives not to get caught or killed. These boys have flushed that rule down the bog and along with their willingness to die comes a whole host of potential new targets and activities.

I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer.

 

[Pickman's model]

Assuming the perpetrators were caught/killed, it would be over fairly soon (I'm betting the number of people willing to do this is less than 50).

it is now

 

[Pickman's model]

I don't think people getting sliced up in the street could ever become "routine". It would change our way of life.

how do you think all those teenagers get killed? people being stabbed to death IS pretty routine, there's a bit of wailing and a bit of oh no what are we to do after one teenager kills another, or a gang fight at a big station, but nonetheless no one outside the circles of those affected loses any sleep over it.

 

[Idris2002]

Also, on the IRA thing in the 70s and 80s, the scope of their operations were generally limited by the desire of the operatives not to get caught or killed. These boys have flushed that rule down the bog and along with their willingness to die comes a whole host of potential new targets and activities.

I hope I'm wrong but I can see this type of action becoming a game changer.

Yeah, but I see no sign that the new boys with the beards have anything like the organisation the PIRA had, or any interest in developing that sort of organisation, or even the ability to develop one if they wanted to.

It was organisation that gave PIRA the ability to punch above its weight, and stand down when the time came.

So you're probably right about it being a game changer, but in more ways than one.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Speaks the voice of firearms experience, lolz

TBF, sometimes a shot to central mass will kill, sometimes it won't. I'm always a bit worried when you hear about "suspect shot in arm/leg", when you know the fuckers have been trained to aim in the middle of the sodding torso!

 

[Delroy Booth]

The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If that bloke is 'of muslim appearance' then basically, every central african bloke is.

And yet, many are Christian or "animist".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I know, but a lot of English people are well up for a bit of "Help for Heroes" action and will see this almost as a personal attack. The armed forces will see it as a direct personal attack. I expect reprisals from the forces, unofficially like, as used to go on in NI all the time.

"A lot of English people"?
care to quantify that, or a re you talking out of your arse?

 

[Pickman's model]

The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war.

surely the 'big reason' with iraq was fuck all to do with terrorism and very much to do with the fact we were being lied to about the reasons for going to war - and it was clearly apparent AT THE TIME that we were being lied to.

 

[Idris2002]

The thing is this seems like a really crude terrorist attack. Just running a guy over and cutting his head off in the street ffs. It doesn't take weeks of training camp and support from a terrorist network to do what these men have done, so you can't really do much to stop this thing happening. Well, going back in time and not invading Iraq and Afghanistan would be nice but isn't an option. Wasn't this one of the big risks we knowingly took when we invaded these places a decade ago - that it would be interpreted as an anti-Islam crusade and lead to terrorist reprisals? I remember that being one of the major reasons I opposed the Iraq war.

If Willie Whitelaw could describe uproar in 1970s NI as an "acceptable level of violence", the Powers that Be can probably tolerate the odd random beheading here and there. Your mileage may vary of course.