Woolwich soldier killed (was "Did cops just shoot 2 dead in woolwich?")

[sim667]

I remember one of my students asking me who the EDFL are.

 

[Lord Camomile]

tbh, I'm surprised the EDL haven't tried building a base in that part of SE London before. Woolwich, Welling, Plumstead and Charlton have always been notorious for a local fash presence

Given the cultural demographic I find that somewhat bizarre, though I suppose in a twisted way it makes sense as it may be where people feel more 'threatened'.

Again though, I've rarely seen anything serious. The only incident I remember was when a drunk group of maybe 4 or 5 white people had a go at an black mother for slapping her child in the street, and you could tell there was more going on than just their passionate views on parental corporal punishment.

Starting to wonder just how oblivious I've been and whether there's far more tension in the area than I've ever realised

 

[cyprusclean]

What did he mean, "Leave our lands"? He sounded British born and bred.

 

[frogwoman]

i've only known one person from plumstead and she was fairly racist

 

[Streathamite]

Given the cultural demographic I find that somewhat bizarre, though I suppose in a twisted way it makes sense as it may be where people feel more 'threatened'.

Again though, I've rarely seen anything serious. The only incident I remember was when a drunk group of maybe 4 or 5 white people had a go at an black mother for slapping her child in the street, and you could tell there was more going on than just their passionate views on parental corporal punishment.

Starting to wonder just how oblivious I've been and whether there's far more tension in the area than I've ever realised

It may have changed in the past few years, as my visits back to my old stamping ground have become fewer. I started at Thames Poly in Woolwich in 1984, and noticed it almost instantly. It's long been a recruiting ground for the BNP, and | had run-ins with toytown fash there back in '05

 

[Streathamite]

This is probably the first time I've felt vaguely sorry for a multinational energy corporation

 

[Belushi]

It may have changed in the past few years, as my visits back to my old stamping ground have become fewer. I started at Thames Poly in Woolwich in 1984, and noticed it almost instantly. It's long been a recruiting ground for the BNP, and | had run-ins with toytown fash there back in '05

The demographics have changed quite rapidly in the past 20 years, it was overwhelmingly white in the early 90's and a lot of the pubs were out and out racist. I was in Woolwich last year for the first time in about ten years and although theres been some money spent on the centre there's still a lot of deprivation.

 

[Lord Camomile]

It may have changed in the past few years, as my visits back to my old stamping ground have become fewer. I started at Thames Poly in Woolwich in 1984, and noticed it almost instantly. It's long been a recruiting ground for the BNP, and | had run-ins with toytown fash there back in '05

Well working in central London I'm honestly not there a great deal, and when it is it's generally just passing through on my way home or doing the shopping on a Saturday. Like I say, perhaps there's a lot more going on than is immediately obvious.

 

[Lord Camomile]

although theres been some money spent on the centre there's still a lot of deprivation.

This is true; it's a really odd situation. You've got the redeveloped square and the new housing down by the river, but it's really barely even surface deep.

 

[brogdale]

What did he mean, "Leave our lands"? He sounded British born and bred.

I assume he was referring "the righteous caliphate of our umma"; stated goal of AQ. As such, any notion of nationalism is redundant.

 

[agricola]

I assume he was referring "the righteous caliphate of our umma"; stated goal of AQ. As such, any notion of nationalism is redundant.

Or indeed logic, given that they have included most of Spain in "our lands" in the past.

 

[brogdale]

...and now it's Clegg's fault for stopping the development of UK Stasi...

Lord West, the former security minister, has weighed in on the debate over the now-shelved communications data bill (see earlier). The bill, blocked by Nick Clegg, would allow investigators to get hold of suspects' phone records to trace their contacts. West told Sky News:

If we don't get a communications data bill, then in the future we won't be able to find that sort of information.
That information is extremely important for our security services to be able to pin down people, find out who they are linked with, who maybe radicalised them - was it just themselves or is there someone radicalising more people?
We need to know this information and I do think that the communications data bill which was due to come through and has been put on pause by the deputy prime minister, I think that's a terrible mistake.
​

The word reactionary doesn't do this justice.​

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm wondering whether to say something?

this is urban. you will say something. then you will say something else. it is the way of the poster.

 

[brogdale]

Or indeed logic, given that they have included most of Spain in "our lands" in the past.

Yeah, but strictly speaking, the south of the Iberian penisula did come under the caliphate of cordoba.

 

[tommers]

...and now it's Clegg's fault for stopping the development of UK Stasi...

​

​

​

The word reactionary doesn't do this justice.​

Why not look at why people are being "radicalised"?

These guys were making quite a clear point. An attack in retaliation for the West's attacks on Muslims. Why not try to deal with that, rather than trying to get more laws to snoop on people?

 

[girasol]

What did he mean, "Leave our lands"? He sounded British born and bred.

When you are made to feel you don't belong where you are born you would naturally think of your land as the place your ancestors come from. I'd imagine that to be his reasoning.

Hate breeds hate.

 

[2hats]

Why not look at why people are being "radicalised"?

These guys were making quite a clear point. An attack in retaliation for the West's attacks on Muslims. Why not try to deal with that, rather than trying to get more laws to snoop on people?

Given the increasing abrogation of freedoms and human rights, extra-judicial killing, kidnapping, detention without trial, etc, of the past decade-plus by persons acting on behalf of western governments you'd almost be forgiven for getting the impression that someone/people, somewhere were willfully seeking a quasi-police state of sorts rather than making any effort at addressing the underlying cause...

 

[Spymaster]

...and now it's Clegg's fault for stopping the development of UK Stasi...

​

​

The word reactionary doesn't do this justice.​

He makes an uncomfortable point though.

If this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.

So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.

 

[2hats]

Terrorism is defined as using violence or intimidation in pursuit of political aims.
They used violence and then went round telling people why they did it. Pretty much makes them terrorists. Wether they are part of a group or it was just the two of them we will have to wait and see.

The perfect description of Bush/Bliar and all those who have sought to perpetuate their work.

 

[not-bono-ever]

dunno how representaive the EDL FB page is, but looks like theyve doubled their fucking "Likes" overnight ....

 

[rekil]

Sorry but I laughed at the police at the end here, screaming and then charging over a hedge

See the copper falling in the hedge poignantly. Like a Robert Capa photo.

 

[editor]

Still trying to work out how the EDL turning up at Woolwich and then throwing bottles at the police fits in with 'defending' the UK from Johnny Foreigners.

 

[where to]

There is a guy who knew him on Twitter saying interesting stuff. Seems legit, Twitter handle is Abu nusaybah.

"A no facebook/ Twitter / demonstrations guy" he says. Quite possibly how he slipped through the net.

Edit: that said there are obvious motives for this guy to talk shit so do treat with caution

 

[Lord Camomile]

He makes an uncomfortable point though.

If this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.

So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.

It wouldn't have to be 'jihadis' and it wouldn't have to be part of a wider, more sinister outfit. Anyone trying to make a 'point' can grab a knife, run into the street and kill someone. It really isn't that difficult. It happens, from time to time, but thankfully not with great regularity.

Excessive control of a population is just as, if not more, sinister.

 

[brogdale]

He makes an uncomfortable point though.

If this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.

So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.

...or not waging (illegal) wars against other countries....maybe?

 

[Spymaster]

It wouldn't have to be 'jihadis' and it wouldn't have to be part of a wider, more sinister outfit. Anyone trying to make a 'point' can grab a knife, run into the street and kill someone. It really isn't that difficult. It happens, from time to time, but thankfully not with great regularity.

Excessive control of a population is just as, if not more, sinister.

I don't really get your point here.

It's not about the ease with which it can be done, but the motivation to actually do it. My point is that if there are a bunch of these guys out there prepared to do shit like this and such attacks become more frequent, civil liberties are going out the window.

 

[agricola]

He makes an uncomfortable point though.

If this is is the start of a new form of terrorism, where a couple of motivated individuals can take out a few people anytime, anywhere, it's going to be virtually impossible to guard against. If people could be impelled to carry out attacks like this with far greater frequency the country would be a basket case within months. I don't know how many would be jihadis are prepared to chop people up in the streets but I doubt it's just these two.

So it's important to find out whether these guys are freelance fucksticks or part of a wider, more sinister outfit. If it's even suspected to be the latter it's only a matter of time before a communications data bill is passed because prior intelligence is pretty much the only way the authorities have any hope of preventing this sort of attack.

A Communications Data Bill of the kind that Lord West and that Reid advocate wouldnt have prevented this attack - if the security services were interested in them (at least to the degree that would be required to prevent this) they would almost certainly have had access to that sort of information / data already. As for "a new sort of terrorism", you are right that its virtually impossible to guard against (lets face it people stab and chop each other up for usually daft non-political reasons on occasion in London already) but I doubt that it would lead to a wider trend of attacks - as that schoolteacher apparently said to one of the suspects, there are more of us than there is of them, they would lose.

 

[brogdale]

I don't really get your point here.

It's not about the ease with which it can be done, but the motivation to actually do it. My point is that if there are a bunch of these guys out there prepared to do shit like this and such attacks become more frequent, civil liberties are going out the window.

they have already. It's just that they now crave (Stasi-like) blanket surveillance of the population

 

[where to]

There is a guy who knew him on Twitter saying interesting stuff. Seems legit, Twitter handle is Abu nusaybah.

"A no facebook/ Twitter / demonstrations guy" he says. Quite possibly how he slipped through the net.

Edit: that said there are obvious motives for this guy to talk shit so do treat with caution

This guy named the suspect last night in now deleted tweets. That name is now bring reported by the Sun. More confident this guy is legit now. searches also going on in Romford, where he said the guy was from.

 

[Spymaster]

...or not waging (illegal) wars against other countries....maybe?

Well of course, but that brings up the far greater issue of western interaction with islam, radicalisation of sections of it, who did what first, who supports whom, etc, etc, etc. Then of course there are the ambitions of radical islamists themselves, would they stop urging the destruction of western values if troops were pulled out of Iraq and Afghanistan? If support for Israel was reduced? Is that desirable?

While I agree with the thrust of your point, it's not as simple as saying "if we stop this, they'll stop that", and it's certainly not an effective short term remedy to terrorist actions on the streets.