Why the lib-dems are shit

[Spanky Longhorn]

But the alternatives? You've not addressed the substance of my point, have you?

Make an alternative yourself. If you wait for the political class to make a world or even just a country or city you want to live in, you'll be waiting a while.

 

[Corax]

Make an alternative yourself. If you wait for the political class to make a world or even just a country or city you want to live in, you'll be waiting a while.

"you'll be waiting a while." - do you realistically think that your way's going to be quicker?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

"you'll be waiting a while." - do you realistically think that your way's going to be quicker?

If a quick fix is what you're after you're going to be even more disapointed than if the Libdems do well enough in this election to be able to influence government.

First of all, you don't know what my way is, secondly what has my way got to do with it? (that would be a quality mashup btw (the Noel Coward/Tina Turner versions of course)).

The point is that if we are actually building our own alternatives right now, we're hardly waiting around.

 

[butchersapron]

"you'll be waiting a while." - do you realistically think that your way's going to be quicker?

Quicker then what? To achieve what?

 

[Beanburger]

The LibDems can be as shit as they want so long as they manage to deliver PR.

 

[butchersapron]

PR will save us - just look at Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Iceland, Ireland etc - all in great shape.

 

[Beanburger]

PR will save us - just look at Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Iceland, Ireland etc - all in great shape.

Greece is one of the few countries in the EU that doesn't have PR. Go figure. Still, nobody's advocating PR as a panacea, but if you ever want a government that ain't Lab/Con....

 

[Corax]

If a quick fix is what you're after ...

No Spanky, it was you that posted 'you'll be waiting a while' - I quoted you.

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

No Spanky, it was you that posted 'you'll be waiting a while' - I quoted you.

It was the "waiting" bit that mattered, which you know - answer the substantive points of my second post.

 

[elbows]

Even if I was silly enough to buy in to the Lib Dems, the local candidate here isnt local, lives nowhere near here, Ive never seen them and have received no election material from them at any point. I will try to learn something about them via the internet but it wont make any difference. The Lib Dems are amusingly useful in this election as far as Im concerned because of the spanner they are throwing in the Tory machine, but I cant imagine ever supporting them on anything but single issues from time to time.

 

[butchersapron]

Greece is one of the few countries in the EU that doesn't have PR. Go figure. Still, nobody's advocating PR as a panacea, but if you ever want a government that ain't Lab/Con....

It has a system of 'reinforced' PR - 300 seats, 260 elected by PR, largest party gets the other 40 seats.

And PR is going to ensure a lab or con leading presence in every govt ever.

 

[Corax]

PR will save us - just look at Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Iceland, Ireland etc - all in great shape.

Any suggestions that may realistically happen in our lifetimes then?

 

[butchersapron]

Any suggestions that may realistically happen in our lifetimes then?

Have you any?

 

[Beanburger]

It has a system of 'reinforced' PR - 300 seats, 260 elected by PR, largest party gets the other 40 seats.

It ain't proper PR, whatever way you look at it. They have a system that's loaded against coalition government.

And PR is going to ensure a lab or con presence in every govt ever.

A "presence" is fine. We're stuck with that anyway. What PR will change is that it will ensure other parties get a voice, and that new parties can actually grow because people can vote for them without feeling that their vote is wasted.

 

[Corax]

It was the "waiting" bit that mattered, which you know - answer the substantive points of my second post.

What, this one?

If a quick fix is what you're after you're going to be even more disapointed than if the Libdems do well enough in this election to be able to influence government.

First of all, you don't know what my way is, secondly what has my way got to do with it? (that would be a quality mashup btw (the Noel Coward/Tina Turner versions of course)).

The point is that if we are actually building our own alternatives right now, we're hardly waiting around.

There's not much to answer there really is there? To steal a phrase from Butchers (who will no doubt savage me now), it's drivel.

 

[Corax]

Have you any?

You should go into politics.

 

[butchersapron]

It ain't proper PR, whatever way you look at it. They have a system that's loaded against coalition government.

It's a form of PR - there are many different forms of PR. This is one of them, albeit one engineered to majoritarian outcomes.

A "presence" is fine. We're stuck with that anyway. What PR will change is that it will ensure other parties get a voice, and that new parties can actually grow because people can vote for them without feeling that their vote is wasted.

It will ensure that lab or the conservatives are 'leading presences' in every single government from now on - exactly the same as we have now. Why you're sure it'll give other parties the opp to grow and that they'll have their voices heard rather than throwing over their principles when they are offered the chance of grabbing a little bit of power for themselves i don't know. What's the record on this in other countries?

 

[butchersapron]

You should go into politics.

But you haven't offered anything except more of the same under the flag of change.

 

[Beanburger]

It's a form of PR - there are many different forms of PR. This is one of them, albeit one engineered to majoritarian outcomes.

It technically can be a swiss cheese for all I care. It ain't PR as commonly understood, and it ain't a form of PR being advocated in this country, so it ain't a suitable candidate for comparison.

It will ensure that lab or the conservatives are 'leading presences' in every single government from now on - exactly the same as we have now.

It's not "exactly the same as we have now" if other parties have a voice. And frankly, most methods of PR give the LibDems a fair shot at becoming the largest single party. Many Lib/Con marginals would fall to the Lib Dems with Labour voters putting them down as second preference under, say, an STV system of PR.

Why you're sure it'll give other parties the opp to grow and that they'll have their voices heard rather than throwing over their principles when they are offered the chance of grabbing a little bit of power for themselves i don't know. What's the record on this in other countries?

Pretty good, actually. I'm sure you'll hold a different opinion, so I expect we'll have to agree to differ.

 

[Corax]

But you haven't offered anything except more of the same under the flag of change.

I'm not 'offering' anything. I have 0.46 of a vote.

I'd rather a planck-length step towards PR than nothing at all.

The alternatives are labour or bullingdon.

 

[butchersapron]

PR is both of them.

 

[London_Calling]

PR will save us - just look at Greece, Spain, Portugal, Italy, Iceland, Ireland etc - all in great shape.

Have you looked out the window recently?

 

[butchersapron]

It technically can be a swiss cheese for all I care. It ain't PR as commonly understood, and it ain't a form of PR being advocated in this country, so it ain't a suitable candidate for comparison.

Sorry, but even in this country there are a wide range of common understandisng of what PR entails - including majoritarian slanted systems like that of Greece - the option favoured for Labour's proposed referendum next year is STV for example. Pure PR is not the only model, it's one of many.

It's not "exactly the same as we have now" if other parties have a voice. And frankly, most methods of PR give the LibDems a fair shot at becoming the largest single party. Many Lib/Con marginals would fall to the Lib Dems with Labour voters putting them down as second preference under, say, an STV system of PR.

Pretty good, actually. I'm sure you'll hold a different opinion, so I expect we'll have to agree to differ.

It's exactly the same if the political content of the outcome is exactly the same and administered by exactly the same parties.

Where are the examples of PR allowing small parties to pull the larger ones leftwards? There must be many of them?

 

[elbows]

Why you're sure it'll give other parties the opp to grow and that they'll have their voices heard rather than throwing over their principles when they are offered the chance of grabbing a little bit of power for themselves i don't know. What's the record on this in other countries?

I dont know what the record is but it could be boiled down to whether you think politics is the art of compromise or not.

It doesnt seem like an either/or choice to me. You can grow the party, get your voice heard a little more than before, stick to some principals, abandon others, make bargains, or stand on the margins and shout, or all of the above. Im sure a lot of people have wrestled with their conscience in all sorts of ways when entering politics, PR or not, and it does stand to reason that the more power you get the more compromised you are likely to be. I doubt that can be fixed without changing the fundamental nature of political representation, and even then it merely shifts the compromise from being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals to being a burden placed on everyone. I can hardly get out of bed without making some compromises.

 

[elbows]

Where are the examples of PR allowing small parties to pull the larger ones leftwards? There must be many of them?

I would expect there are no end of examples where specific legislation is modified in some way in order to get the support needed to pass. Again its far too much about compromise, far too imperfect and lacking ideological purity for everyone to be happy with such a state of affairs, but I broadly support anything that can moderate the worst excesses of the prevailing regime or ideology. Sure there are many many times when softening the corners of something is not enough to bring about just results to all humans, but Id still rather have the soft-cornered version than the sorts of hard edges that otherwise occur.

 

[butchersapron]

I dont know what the record is but it could be boiled down to whether you think politics is the art of compromise or not.

It doesnt seem like an either/or choice to me. You can grow the party, get your voice heard a little more than before, stick to some principals, abandon others, make bargains, or stand on the margins and shout, or all of the above. Im sure a lot of people have wrestled with their conscience in all sorts of ways when entering politics, PR or not, and it does stand to reason that the more power you get the more compromised you are likely to be. I doubt that can be fixed without changing the fundamental nature of political representation, and even then it merely shifts the compromise from being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals to being a burden placed on everyone. I can hardly get out of bed without making some compromises.

I'm supportive of the introduction of PR - and in as pure a form as possible. What i'm not supportive of is this complacency that PR will operate as a Panacea when the historical and regional examples show the opposite. I'm supportive of it as potentially opening up space for groups like the IWCA or other similar initiatives to develop their own power bases though defending/imposing w/c interests rather than any use it may have in propping up the parties and the system or in 'working together' with neo-liberals. If it's reduced to opening up opportunities to dialogue with neo-liberals the better to put across common policies then...

 

[Corax]

What's your position on the election Butchers?

Vote Labour?
Vote Libdem?
Vote Bullingdon?
Vote minority?
Spoil?

You're producing plenty of bile, but I can't ascertain the purpose.

 

[Beanburger]

Sorry, but even in this country there are a wide range of common understandisng of what PR entails - including majoritarian slanted systems like that of Greece - the option favoured for Labour's proposed referendum next year is STV for example. Pure PR is not the only model, it's one of many.

Pedantry. You offered Greece up as an example of bad governance under PR. Nobody is proposing a similar system for this country, so it's irrelevant. In fact, the Greek system is closer to first-past-the-post than to the PR systems used in most major European countries, since it delivers single-part governments. Argue the toss over what we call it if you like, but it was a bad example with which to illustrate your point. If anything, Greece highlights the problems with single-party government - which is what UK electoral reform is an attempt to move away from.

It's exactly the same if the political content of the outcome is exactly the same and administered by exactly the same parties.

Where are the examples of PR allowing small parties to pull the larger ones leftwards? There must be many of them?

Off the top of my head, the greens are widely credited with having a significant influence on German politics thanks to PR.

 

[Corax]

What i'm not supportive of is this complacency that PR will operate as a Panacea when the historical and regional examples show the opposite.

Who's said that? Both me and others have readily described the proposed form of PR as shit. Baby steps.

 

[butchersapron]

Pedantry. You offered Greece up as an example of bad governance under PR. Nobody is proposing a similar system for this country, so it's irrelevant. In fact, the Greek system is closer to first-past-the-post than to the PR systems used in most major European countries, since it delivers single-part governments. Argue the toss over what we call it if you like, but it was a bad example with which to illustrate your point. If anything, Greece highlights the problems with single-party government - which is what UK electoral reform is an attempt to move away from.

Well no, it's a model of PR, albeit one designed to be friendly to forming majorities - precisely as many people have suggested introducing to this country and a half-way house between pure PR and pure FPTP. It was an especially apt example. And the point was not about bad governance under pR at all, it was about the from of government taking secondary place to the needs of the capitalist system.

Off the top of my head, the greens are widely credited with having a significant influence on German politics thanks to PR.

You mean where they supported cuts in social spending, pensions etc and roll back of the welfare state and supported foreign military interventions?