Why the Lib Dems are great

[Nylock]

Please specify these "sub-quality universities" and quantify their "wealth of worthless degrees". Thanks.

...Maybe he means 'all universities not in the russell group'

 

[moon23]

Oh, it's a 'global monetary crisis' & 'global recession' now, is it? Here was me thinking it was all because of Brown and the LP. Isn't that the party line?

Moon will be along with his whip for you shortly, poison.

I do not have any authority over Poison. I think high LP spending gave us less room to react to the global recession. I also think they encouraged the housing market boom which was in part responsible because intuitions like Northern Rock looked overseas for cheap money to fund the boom in mortgage provision.

Also Brown is largely responsible for driving the bailout agenda, which transferred the private debt into collective sovereign debt. The argument that is put forth is that he had no choice, if you accept that interpretation then Poison is pointing out that there are going to be consequences of us taking on a lot of debt.

 

[moon23]

Please specify these "sub-quality universities" and quantify their "wealth of worthless degrees". Thanks.

No, under the Browne reforms, university then only becomes to those that can afford it and/or are not debt-averse.

Which uni did you work for? I've never known a PhD be turned down because of the university the applicant came from. Plenty because of quality (from "top" universities as well as more mundane ones) but none solely because they didn't go to "a top university".

Places like Southampton Solent or Bolton are sub-standard Universities. I doubt any degrees are entirely worthless, but in terms of increasing your employability or actually giving you a decent education then many find themselves lacking.

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

 

[moon23]

The narrative switches depending on the requirements of the argument. Today "global" issues, tomorrow "13 years of Labour spending", the day after, "Brown's deregulation".

I think it's a case of arguing a point from a premise that you have accepted. IF you say that it's a global problem then there are going to be consequences to which the Lib/Tories are victims of.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Also Brown is largely responsible for driving the bailout agenda, which transferred the private debt into collective sovereign debt. The argument that is put forth is that he had no choice, if you accept that interpretation then Poison is pointing out that there are going to be consequences of us taking on a lot of debt.

What consequences, though? Ought that to mean, for instance, that the higher rate of income tax should be 50% rather than 40%? The coalition says no – despite the hole they say we are in, they have not touched higher-rate income tax or standard rate. In fact, all higher-rate taxpayers will be paying less tax as a result of the rise in the personal allowance – and if you are rich and don't have children, you don't lose any tax rebate either. These changes in the tax system, in a time of 'austerity', mean, extraordinarily, that the rich pay less in direct tax.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Places like Southampton Solent or Bolton are sub-standard Universities. I doubt any degrees are entirely worthless, but in terms of increasing your employability or actually giving you a decent education then many find themselves lacking.

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

More casual empiricism and anecdata; it wasn't convincing last time and it isn't this time.

Any thoughts on the IFS's appreciation of the regressive character of the coalition's spending review?

Louis MacNeice

 

[Streathamite]

what would you say to the new labour supporters who voted conservatives\liberal democrats this time around?
.

"you mugs, look what you brought down on yourself"

at the next elections (after the cuts have been made and there's mass unemployment), what will you say
to those former lib dem\ new labour supporters who elect a tory majority government?

Oh REALLY? You KNOW this is gonna happen. My, what clairvoyancy! alternatively - you're talking shit. face the facts; your period in power will be brief - it will be a miracle if you do the full 5 years, and for the libdems that's it -decades in the wilderness, for the tories at least a decade out.

it wouldn't surprise me if for all the rhetoric on here, one or two of the u75's 'red or dead' brigade
hadn't voted for the conservatives at some point in their lives

yes, well, thank you for that stunning insight on how not to surprise you. Next!

 

[ViolentPanda]

...Maybe he means 'all universities not in the russell group'

Probably. It's just the sort of idiotic generalisation he's fond of!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Places like Southampton Solent or Bolton are sub-standard Universities.

Why are they "sub-standard"?

I doubt any degrees are entirely worthless...

Then why claim otherwise, unless you're dishonest?

...but in terms of increasing your employability or actually giving you a decent education then many find themselves lacking.

In what way? You're great at making sweeping generalisations, but if you're making such far-reaching claims, you should have the decency to put some meat on the bones.

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

So you worked for an elite, and yet don't seem to understand why tutors might wish to perpetuate their elitism?
Odd, as I'd have thought that a liberal would understand such actions all too well.

 

[Santino]

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

That's funny, because I've worked for a new University where lecturers despaired at more established universities' laughable attempts to widen access, support non-traditional students and actually focus on teaching undergraduates instead of pursuing increasingly narrow and pointless research agendas.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think it's a case of arguing a point from a premise that you have accepted. IF you say that it's a global problem then there are going to be consequences to which the Lib/Tories are victims of.

In other words, as I said, you switch narratives depending on the requirements of your argument.

 

[Proper Tidy]

In other words, as I said, you switch narratives depending on the requirements of your argument.

I noticed this flip-flop from 'it's all Labour's fault' to 'it's the world economy' yesterday with Poison too.

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Moon what do you think of the Open University?

Louis MacNeice

 

[ViolentPanda]

I noticed this flip-flop from 'it's all Labour's fault' to 'it's the world economy' yesterday with Poison too.

Sad, isn't it?

 

[19sixtysix]

Places like Southampton Solent or Bolton are sub-standard Universities. I doubt any degrees are entirely worthless, but in terms of increasing your employability or actually giving you a decent education then many find themselves lacking.

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

What arrogant academic pish! Education is for the betterment of yourself and enriching your life. The attitude that it is all about getting a job is wrong. I've been to several universities including Russel group and polytechnic types and I'm now doing OU for pleasure. I'll say academic standards were reasonably high in all, teaching far better in modern universities (despite being given less per student than oxbridge) and the OU is the hardest work. I'd rate a person with an OU degree over and oxford PPE in terms of hard work and commitment.

The myth of oxbridge comes from teaching their students that they will be the elite.
Truth has never been required to back this myth.

 

[Wolveryeti]

I'd rate a person with an OU degree over and oxford PPE in terms of hard work and commitment.

The myth of oxbridge comes from teaching their students that they will be the elite.
Truth has never been required to back this myth.

Does the OU require you to write two essays a week?

 

[Streathamite]

Vocational training's "reform" doesn't appear to be very reforming, and while the re-classification of some vocational subjects away from the degree route makes sense (using a bachelor's degree as a marker of achievement in a vocational field having been a short-sighted manouvre on the part of the Tories, surprise surprise!), it'll need more than a bit of jiggery-pokery with higher ed and the creation of 50,000 more apprenticeships this parliament to make any reform worthwhile.
All this is doing is re-arranging the deck-chairs so that peter can be robbed to pay Paul. What this "reform" reduces to is a sop to employers, and little or no change to the current cleavages between the classes.

damn right, and with the not-so-hidden agenda that uni access is restricted to those whose mummies and daddies are wealthy enough to fund them for the whole 3 years

 

[Louis MacNeice]

Does the OU require you to write two essays a week?

Some years ago I went to a university that worked on the oxbridge essay writing small/individual tutorial model; this was Sussex when the school of study system was still in operation. I now work for the OU writing course materials, chairing courses, monitoring associate lecturers and exam script markers. The oxbridge system suited me down to the ground; I would find the OU approach much more demanding.

We need a variety of university provision and a recogniton that excellence can be arrived at by very different means.

Louis MacNeice

 

[ericjarvis]

In other words, as I said, you switch narratives depending on the requirements of your argument.

Surely that is the basic principle of Liberal Democracy?

 

[moon23]

Moon what do you think of the Open University?

Louis MacNeice

It's a good idea

 

[moon23]

Why are they "sub-standard"?

They are at the bottom of the league tables on a range of criteria.

Then why claim otherwise, unless you're dishonest?

I was speaking generally, they are generally worthless by criteria of employability but not entirely so as they still have some value.

In what way? You're great at making sweeping generalisations, but if you're making such far-reaching claims, you should have the decency to put some meat on the bones.

In the way that there are many young people with mediocre degrees for whom can't find employment that puts their knowledge base to use.

So you worked for an elite, and yet don't seem to understand why tutors might wish to perpetuate their elitism?
Odd, as I'd have thought that a liberal would understand such actions all too well.

Yes I recognise that many people now look at the name of the University rather than just if you have a degree. This Elitism is widespread and one reason why simply encouraging more people to go to University doesn’t lift all the barriers. It's far more important to encourage poorer children to be able to reach the bar, rather than lower the bar and pretend it's of the same value.

 

[moon23]

damn right, and with the not-so-hidden agenda that uni access is restricted to those whose mummies and daddies are wealthy enough to fund them for the whole 3 years

No it's free at the point of delivery and more money is being given via the pupil premium to give children a fairer start

 

[Pickman's model]

Places like Southampton Solent or Bolton are sub-standard Universities. I doubt any degrees are entirely worthless, but in terms of increasing your employability or actually giving you a decent education then many find themselves lacking.

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

i'm very surprised. i find it hard to believe any reputable university would let you anywhere near them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Surely that is the basic principle of Liberal Democracy?

Of Liberal-Democrats, anyway.

 

[Refused as fuck]

I've not followed this thread in the past 10 or so pages but shall I just presume moon23 is still being a slimy dickhead with no politics, shame, or self-awareness? Like all Liberal Democrats.

 

[Belushi]

I worked for a Russell group University, and sat in an admissions meeting where tutors took the piss out of 'new universities'

So did I, except the disdain was more for other Russell Group Universities, post-92 Universities werent on the radar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

They are at the bottom of the league tables on a range of criteria.

You're talking, but you're not saying anything. Quantify your claim with detail, stop waffling.

I was speaking generally, they are generally worthless by criteria of employability but not entirely so as they still have some value.

You were "speaking generally", eh? You seemed to be rather precise in your claim when you first made it.
As for employability criteria, what are they? In every job I ever had after I left the army, my educational history was second to the experience I could bring to a job. You're making tabloidesque assumptions on quality of education and quality of establishment, and attempting to temporise when asked to explain yourself.

In the way that there are many young people with mediocre degrees for whom can't find employment that puts their knowledge base to use.

Look at any research in the last 50 years on higher education and you'll find a curious constant: That only around 20% of graduates find employment that "puts their knowledge base to use". Most rational employers, unless they inhabit a specialist field, take a degree to indicate your ability to manage yourself and apply yourself, nothing more, nothing less.

Yes I recognise that many people now look at the name of the University rather than just if you have a degree. This Elitism is widespread and one reason why simply encouraging more people to go to University doesn’t lift all the barriers. It's far more important to encourage poorer children to be able to reach the bar, rather than lower the bar and pretend it's of the same value.

Raising the cost of tuition fees guarantees that some of those "poorer children" will forego attending university because they're debt-averse. That's how it is in many poor households. We don't like debt.

 

[Streathamite]

No it's free at the point of delivery and more money is being given via the pupil premium to give children a fairer start

Oh ffs! The pupil Premium has FUCK ALL to do with the effect of soaring tuition fees on uni access
And no, more money is NOT being given via the pupil premium. It comes from within the same overall education budget that has not increased by the amount necessary to reflect the premium, and - once increases in pupil numbers are costed in - has fallen in real terms of spend per pupil.
And as for uni access; if you know the amount you'll owe on student loan is facing a massive hike, the fact it's a loan rather than cash upfront is utterly irrelevant! ask ANY 17/18 year old thinking right now of Uni

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Yes, last night on Channel 4 News Kathy Newman did a presentation about this and pointed out that the Pupil Premium was not new money and would be taken from the increasingly stretched Education Budget.

 

[19sixtysix]

Does the OU require you to write two essays a week?

Not when people are generally working full time while studying and not in Chemistry and most science subjects. Essays are left to the waffly imprecise subjects.