Why doesn't Gerry Adams just admit he was Chief of Staff of the IRA?

[Casually Red]

I still get really angry watching that. Its not like people werent told.

But by fuck theyll toe the line now. They have no other options.

 

[N_igma]

Yeh pisses me off too the Provos never really had a proper Marxist ideology. Always had a Catholic tinge to it.

I've always been most attracted myself to the early day IRSP ideology but that itself died out by the 80's.

 

[Casually Red]

They didnt have a Marxist ideology because they werent a Marxist organisation, Ireland wasnt a Marxist country, the people simply werent Marxists. Any attempt to graft that on artificially from the top was an exercise in rhetoric only, as other examples have shown . Despite that even the more conservative catholic members were more than happy to engage in all manner of social agitation and left wing projects. There was nothing to stop more left leaning initiatives going forward and being built upon. Eire Nua for example was being revised and added to with a lot more left wing orientation. A natural organic expression of what the grass roots were comfortable with and could identify with.

When Adams and his crew were seizing power they immediately set about using extreme leftism as a means to undermine the republican leadership, to portray them as soft on every issue and to alienate them to the utmost. All manner of hairy social worker type weirdoes started to gain prominence from nowhere due to their marxist zeal...many of them are landlords in Belfast now. OBradiagh was reduced at one point to having to explain to them that even in the DDR some forms of private property ownership and profit were permitted. That was in response to motions calling for the abolition of all private property, utterly rubbish stuff. An ard feis I attended in the mid 80s even had a motion calling on the Ard feis to recognise Albania..thats right mid 1980s Albania...as the only true socialist state in the world. From the same cumann that was proposing the end to abstentionism.
Fucking Albania for christs sake.
But a year later after it had served its purpose this was mostly gone. McGuinness pronounced socialism wasnt on the agenda. A mere 12 months later. It was nothing more than an internal ruse.
Politics wise Adams and McGuiness are as thick as 2 short planks. They dont even understand Marxism much less believe in it.


What the provos ended up with was absolutely no ideology at all, not even a very basic republican one. The only ideology was the leaders strategy. Which, of course, was a big secret that nobody was allowed to know. Adams and McGuinness completely depoliticised the provos, they expunged it of any beliefs . They came to believe in absolutely nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. They have a leadership that doesnt have a position on anything at all, pretty much.

The IRSPs Marxism was cheifly built around the personality cult of Costello, a bit of a simplification but largely true. Once he was killed the impetus behind it withered and died. Like the sticks its all nice sounding but how exactly applicable was it to the Irish people ? How did they identify with it ? How did they relate to it or understand it ? was it not just the ideology of the few partially grafted onto the militarism of the majority ?

 

[Idris2002]

They didnt have a Marxist ideology because they werent a Marxist organisation, Ireland wasnt a Marxist country, the people simply werent Marxists. Any attempt to graft that on artificially from the top was an exercise in rhetoric only, as other examples have shown . Despite that even the more conservative catholic members were more than happy to engage in all manner of social agitation and left wing projects. There was nothing to stop more left leaning initiatives going forward and being built upon. Eire Nua for example was being revised and added to with a lot more left wing orientation. A natural organic expression of what the grass roots were comfortable with and could identify with.

When Adams and his crew were seizing power they immediately set about using extreme leftism as a means to undermine the republican leadership, to portray them as soft on every issue and to alienate them to the utmost. All manner of hairy social worker type weirdoes started to gain prominence from nowhere due to their marxist zeal...many of them are landlords in Belfast now. OBradiagh was reduced at one point to having to explain to them that even in the DDR some forms of private property ownership and profit were permitted. That was in response to motions calling for the abolition of all private property, utterly rubbish stuff. An ard feis I attended in the mid 80s even had a motion calling on the Ard feis to recognise Albania..thats right mid 1980s Albania...as the only true socialist state in the world. From the same cumann that was proposing the end to abstentionism.
Fucking Albania for christs sake.
But a year later after it had served its purpose this was mostly gone. McGuinness pronounced socialism wasnt on the agenda. A mere 12 months later. It was nothing more than an internal ruse.
Politics wise Adams and McGuiness are as thick as 2 short planks. They dont even understand Marxism much less believe in it.


What the provos ended up with was absolutely no ideology at all, not even a very basic republican one. The only ideology was the leaders strategy. Which, of course, was a big secret that nobody was allowed to know. Adams and McGuinness completely depoliticised the provos, they expunged it of any beliefs . They came to believe in absolutely nothing at all. Absolutely nothing. They have a leadership that doesnt have a position on anything at all, pretty much.

The IRSPs Marxism was cheifly built around the personality cult of Costello, a bit of a simplification but largely true. Once he was killed the impetus behind it withered and died. Like the sticks its all nice sounding but how exactly applicable was it to the Irish people ? How did they identify with it ? How did they relate to it or understand it ? was it not just the ideology of the few partially grafted onto the militarism of the majority ?

There was also the abject failure of Operation Harvest/the border campaign, which focussed some minds on alternatives to the old way of doing things.

There was also the accelerating social change in the south, which would have put the old traditional politics of all the parties and movements in question, even if 1969 and after hadn't happened in the north.

Fucking Albania for christs sake.

'Too mad even for Casually Red'.

 

[Casually Red]

There was also the abject failure of Operation Harvest/the border campaign, which focussed some minds on alternatives to the old way of doing things.

There was also the accelerating social change in the south, which would have put the old traditional politics of all the parties and movements in question, even if 1969 and after hadn't happened in the north.



'Too mad even for Casually Red'.

but what many people overlook about Harvest had been the initial plan to initiate civil agitation in the north around the very same social issues NICRA started out tackling . Not only to create international support but to create an agitated sea to swim in . It wasnt conceived as the blind militarist adventure its often portrayed as . Republicans were always well aware of the need for political action. The idea that a few bright sparks thought this up later and then founded the stickies is a self serving myth .

That plan was largely scuppered by the actions of a smaller group based around Liam Kelly and backed by Mac Brides Clann na Poblachta. Saor Uladh . Theyd already initiated their own guerrilla campaign which while small was prolific enough to risk the entire balloon going up. The IRA were steadily losing their planned element of surprise and risked defections to Kelly on one hand and possible internment north and south before they moved on the other , the clock was definitely ticking. So in they jumped without preparing the ground first, hoping for the best .

thats why it was called Harvest. They planned to sow the seeds first and reap the reward later.

What ive always found is its not that republicans in general have ever had a major problem with socialism, per se, but with socialists . Because all too often, almost unerringly, such people have had an agenda to divert republicanism away from its primary purpose. To subvert it and make it subservient to their own agenda. Which all too often ends up in reformism and not revolution.
History shows us were the sticks ended up, entryism by the likes of Johnson and others, Marxist rhetoric, reformism and obsolescence. The IRPS, caught betwixt scientific socialism at the top and Belfast and Armagh defenderism at the bottom, betwixt the sticks and the provos, became a failed project, divorced from the people and basically obsolete.
The provos admiited and promoted all sorts of fancy entryist Marxists post hungerstrikes and became reformist, not revolutionary, and enmeshed totally within the very institutions north and south the object was to destroy. Today they are those institutions most vocal defenders .
It was the same in the 20s and 30s. Repeated socialist attempts to take over the IRA originating on the outside. The method being entryism, the object being subversion and Bolshevisation. To turn them away from being the army of the republic and the national resistance and into a subservient party militia. To deflect it from its goals. Thats were the distrust of socialists derives from and why hairs often bristle on necks when they hear fancy Marxist talk.

 

[Idris2002]

but what many people overlook about Harvest had been the initial plan to initiate civil agitation in the north around the very same social issues NICRA started out tackling . Not only to create international support but to create an agitated sea to swim in . It wasnt conceived as the blind militarist adventure its often portrayed as . Republicans were always well aware of the need for political action. The idea that a few bright sparks thought this up later and then founded the stickies is a self serving myth .

That's a new one on me - and I have to say I'm sceptical. The big impetus for NICRA came from the model of the US civil rights movement, which was still in its infancy in 1956 (had anyone even heard of it outside the US by then?).

 

[Pickman's model]

That's a new one on me - and I have to say I'm sceptical. The big impetus for NICRA came from the model of the US civil rights movement, which was still in its infancy in 1956 (had anyone even heard of it outside the US by then?).

yes. there was an article in the times (warning by racial rights group: u.s. communists' aim, 22/2/1956, p. 8) which said 'if the communists are successful [the naacp said] the whole civil rights movement will receive a black eye'.

 

[Pickman's model]

 

[Idris2002]

yes. there was an article in the times (warning by racial rights group: u.s. communists' aim, 22/2/1956, p. 8) which said 'if the communists are successful [the naacp said] the whole civil rights movement will receive a black eye'.

Interesting. But it wasn't presented as something movements from outside the US might learn from?

 

[Pickman's model]

Interesting. But it wasn't presented as something movements from outside the US might learn from?

see my post 38

 

[Casually Red]

That's a new one on me - and I have to say I'm sceptical. The big impetus for NICRA came from the model of the US civil rights movement, which was still in its infancy in 1956 (had anyone even heard of it outside the US by then?).

NICRA were still in nappies during Harvest. The issues which gave rise to them werent however. There were propaganda films in the pipeline and all sorts. The clues in the name. The social agitation was the anticipated seeds from which the Harvest would be reaped.
Wht the IRA wanted was international attention on injustice first, social unrest and them then moving in in flying columns and creating enough havoc along the border to draw the British army out onto the streets. Thereby creating an international incident. It was smack dab in the era of British decolonisation, United Nations, all that stuff.

eta

they wanted to create their own front groups, not use whatever liberals there were in the north.

 

[LiamO]

So what, specifically, caused the premature ejaculation that led to the singularly most unpopular and most unsuccessful armed campaign ever?

What, specifically, caused them to put the (militarist) cart before the (political) horse?

 

[LiamO]

The IRSPs Marxism was cheifly built around the personality cult of Costello,

That will come as news to many of the dedicated political activists involved.

 

[N_igma]

most unsuccessful armed campaign ever?

1803 and 1867 were a lot worse.

 

[Casually Red]

1803 and 1867 were a lot worse.

not to mention 1848

but are we ashamed of Emmett, the Fenians...Im not .

 

[Casually Red]

So what, specifically, caused the premature ejaculation that led to the singularly most unpopular and most unsuccessful armed campaign ever?

What, specifically, caused them to put the (militarist) cart before the (political) horse?

i thought id outlined that perefectly clearly in my previous post. The decision by Liam Kellys outfit to launch their attacks , leading to massively heightened alert on the northern side with the danger of internment , a danger of internment on the southern side to snuff out Kelly and the fear of defections to Kellys camp if they didnt go into the field . Events were moving ahead of them .

And it wasnt as unpopular as you make out . 50,000 people attended souths funeral in Limerick. Many times that number turned out on the streets as the coffin passed through the country.

sinn fein, which had been virtually dead to all intents and purposes until a year or 2 previous , had 4 abstentionist candidates elected south of the border, all prisoners iirc . 2 more elected north of the border . While clann na poblachta who were in the southern government were pretty much backing Kellys Saor Uladh faction in many respects. There was plenty of sympathy so it definitely couldnt be described as unpopular . They never managed to translate that sympathy into active support was the problem .

and fianna fail made sure to snuff them out before they did.

 

[Casually Red]

That will come as news to many of the dedicated political activists involved.

well as i stated in my post it was a major simplification, and id accept an oversimplification . However after his death their ability to translate revolutionary marxism into a relevant living concept for the man in the street and grass root republicans alike, north and south, became seriously impaired and with that their internal structures suffered greivously , due to a number of factors but Costellos removal from their thinking, planning and internal and public articulation being primary in my view. The dedication and commitment of some of their best activists notwithstanding .
The Ta Power initiative years later saw the best chance to reverse this internal decline and make their marxist analysis a force to be reckoned with once more, but yet again the assassins hand put paid to that.

 

[Pickman's model]

1803 and 1867 were a lot worse.

& 1848

e2a: shd have known Casually Red wld have mentioned it

 

[likesfish]

The problem is partition happened and the majority in the 6 counties really really wanted to remain british or at least piss on the catholics without changing that equation nothing else matters.
Unless you have the majority wanting to be united.
british goverment can and has gone lol nope.

 

[N_igma]

& 1848

e2a: shd have known Casually Red wld have mentioned it

Lol yeah forgot to mention that one think half of Europe was in revolt that year iirc.

 

[N_igma]

The problem is partition happened

No need to continue writing after this.

 

[LiamO]

1803 and 1867 were a lot worse.

not to mention 1848

but are we ashamed of Emmett, the Fenians...Im not .

Good points both. teach me not to post after a long chat with Mr Smithwicks.

 

[1%er]

Any of you who know about the Provisional remember Brendan Magill, he used to live in Richmond near London in the early 70's? iirc he was the "leader" in England and was arrested around 71. I think Brendan ran a moving company before his arrest.

(I almost set their house on fire )

 

[Casually Red]

& 1848

e2a: shd have known Casually Red wld have mentioned it

we still invaded canada mind, a couple of times. For the crack pretty much .

 

[dylanredefined]

Which turned out badly

 

[laptop]

That's a new one on me - and I have to say I'm sceptical. The big impetus for NICRA came from the model of the US civil rights movement, which was still in its infancy in 1956 (had anyone even heard of it outside the US by then?).

Founders of NICRA were very, very much aware of the US movement, yes.

There were plenty of sources beyond the Times

 

[1%er]

Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams has been released from custody over a 1972 murder and a file will be sent to the Public Prosecution Service, police have confirmed.

 

[shygirl]

Ed Moloney on Gerry's little local difficulty:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...boss-gerry-adams-wanted-this-murder-bust.html

El Barbudon is going to play the system like a cheap violin over this one, I think.

Does anyone know how Dolores Price died?

 

[Idris2002]

Does anyone know how Dolores Price died?

Suicide according to her wiki. Well, it says:

On 24 January 2013, Dolours Price was found dead at her home, evidently as a result of the toxic effect of a mix of prescribed sedative and anti-depressant medications.[22] The cause of death was not being investigated by the Garda Síochána.[23]

 

[shygirl]

I never normally comment on these sort of threads Liam because I know nothing about it except that I have observed the 'troubles' right from the start from the safety of rural Essex, but yes it does seem pretty obvious that him & McGuinness have always been at the top of the IRA tree. Even recently Adams, while denying involvement in the murder, he was not condemning it same as he has never condemned any IRA action, he expressed no sympathy for her children, nothing. I also recall a rather odd interview with McGuinness, when asked if he had been a Provisional IRA member he said "some weeks I was, some weeks I wasn't". I think Adams would like to be seen in the best traditions of former freedom fighter turned politician. I bet he wishes he could leave a legacy & have a statue of himself somewhere but it appears all this is crumbling before his very eyes at the moment.

I only know what I read in the papers, I've never been to Ireland but I used to be around the pubs in Colchester in the 70s & being an army town I met loads of squaddies who told all sorts of stories when pissed. I also knew a bloke from Belfast who came to live in Clacton at the time. "I just stuck a pin in a map" he said, "had to get out of that shit" He never did tell me what that was about.

I was part of the Troops Out 'Society' in Essex uni in the early 80's. A few of us used to sell An Phoblact in Colchester on Saturday mornings, it was well scary.

I've never understood how Sinn Fein can condemn the actions of others (opposed to the peace process) that they themselves were previously involved in. To call them traitors defies all logic.