Why doesn't Gerry Adams just admit he was Chief of Staff of the IRA?

[LiamO]

I mean it's obvious isn't it?

Once he does so, the ones that demand his mea culpa (unionists, police, british politicians, free-state politicians, the meeja) will all say 'Thanks for clearing that up, Gerry old son' and leave him alone, won't they?

I mean nobody would ever point out that as commander he would be held ultimately (and legally) responsible for every action those he commanded took... would they? Surely not.

They would not interrupt him every single time he spoke with a bit of 'what about X?' .... would they? That would hardly seem fair after him doing what they asked.

Even if he openly accepted that responsibility, I'm sure they would not be looking for him to name anybody else, would they?

He wouldn't be remanded in custody for about 700 years, would he?

After all all they want him to do is admit what 'everybody knows', isn't it?

Gerry holding his hands up seems perfectly reasonable to me. We could just draw a line in the sand and move on. Can't think why the Republican Movement has not thought of it before.

e2a some emoticons , in case any one should think this is a serious, rahter than a monumentally stupid, suggestion?

 

[Pickman's model]

has any ira chief of staff been held legally responsible for the actions of ira volunteers?

i mean, it's not like pira is a properly hierarchical army, is it? the chief of staff doesn't say 'jump' and e.g. the south armagh brigade salute and say 'how high sir'? lots of actions were planned and authorised on a local level. you wouldn't say 'sean macstiofain, you were responsible for every shooting in belfast and derry and places out in the sticks in 1971' would you?

as for adams, for whatever reason he's unlikely to start saying now what people effectively know already after 35-40 odd years. let's move on.

 

[LiamO]

Nor D company on the lower Falls either, I should think.

I'll forward your observations to the media and the republican movement. That should get the ball rolling and change things

 

[LiamO]

you wouldn't say 'sean macstiofain, you were responsible for every shooting in belfast and derry and places out in the sticks in 1971' would you?

I wouldn't, no.

But it's not me making the demand, and Sean Mac never had (or wanted, in fairness) Gerry Adams' national/international political profile.

 

[Pickman's model]

I wouldn't, no.

But it's not me making the demand, and Sean Mac never had (or wanted, in fairness) Gerry Adams' national/international political profile.

 

[LiamO]

Fair dues, but the key word here is 'political'.

Adams is the leader/figurehead of an ongoing political movement/process.

PS Nice old fella was Sean Mac Stiofáin. I had a 45-minute phone conversation with him not long before he died. I was trying to verify/demolish something a Sunday newspaper journalist had written about him. I rang Conradh na Gaelige's head office and they gave me his home phone number! Not only did he confirm that the Journalist was talking out of his hole, but that he could have got the real story from his own father, who was an old comrade of MacStiofáin's.

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I never normally comment on these sort of threads Liam because I know nothing about it except that I have observed the 'troubles' right from the start from the safety of rural Essex, but yes it does seem pretty obvious that him & McGuinness have always been at the top of the IRA tree. Even recently Adams, while denying involvement in the murder, he was not condemning it same as he has never condemned any IRA action, he expressed no sympathy for her children, nothing. I also recall a rather odd interview with McGuinness, when asked if he had been a Provisional IRA member he said "some weeks I was, some weeks I wasn't". I think Adams would like to be seen in the best traditions of former freedom fighter turned politician. I bet he wishes he could leave a legacy & have a statue of himself somewhere but it appears all this is crumbling before his very eyes at the moment.

I only know what I read in the papers, I've never been to Ireland but I used to be around the pubs in Colchester in the 70s & being an army town I met loads of squaddies who told all sorts of stories when pissed. I also knew a bloke from Belfast who came to live in Clacton at the time. "I just stuck a pin in a map" he said, "had to get out of that shit" He never did tell me what that was about.

 

[Idris2002]

I never normally comment on these sort of threads Liam because I know nothing about it except that I have observed the 'troubles' right from the start from the safety of rural Essex, but yes it does seem pretty obvious that him & McGuinness have always been at the top of the IRA tree. Even recently Adams, while denying involvement in the murder, he was not condemning it same as he has never condemned any IRA action, he expressed no sympathy for her children, nothing. I also recall a rather odd interview with McGuinness, when asked if he had been a Provisional IRA member he said "some weeks I was, some weeks I wasn't". I think Adams would like to be seen in the best traditions of former freedom fighter turned politician. I bet he wishes he could leave a legacy & have a statue of himself somewhere but it appears all this is crumbling before his very eyes at the moment.

I only know what I read in the papers, I've never been to Ireland but I used to be around the pubs in Colchester in the 70s & being an army town I met loads of squaddies who told all sorts of stories when pissed. I also knew a bloke from Belfast who came to live in Clacton at the time. "I just stuck a pin in a map" he said, "had to get out of that shit" He never did tell me what that was about.

I mentioned to my 'It's complicated on Facebook' that my nieces were constantly reading them Young Adult Dystopian novels. She replied that she didn't have to read that stuff, because growing up in 70s Belfast she had it all right outside her front door.

 

[Pickman's model]

Fair dues, but the key word here is 'political'.

macstiofain talking about negotiations with the british was er political.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I never normally comment on these sort of threads Liam because I know nothing about it except that I have observed the 'troubles' right from the start from the safety of rural Essex, but yes it does seem pretty obvious that him & McGuinness have always been at the top of the IRA tree. Even recently Adams, while denying involvement in the murder, he was not condemning it same as he has never condemned any IRA action, he expressed no sympathy for her children, nothing. I also recall a rather odd interview with McGuinness, when asked if he had been a Provisional IRA member he said "some weeks I was, some weeks I wasn't". I think Adams would like to be seen in the best traditions of former freedom fighter turned politician. I bet he wishes he could leave a legacy & have a statue of himself somewhere but it appears all this is crumbling before his very eyes at the moment.

I only know what I read in the papers, I've never been to Ireland but I used to be around the pubs in Colchester in the 70s & being an army town I met loads of squaddies who told all sorts of stories when pissed. I also knew a bloke from Belfast who came to live in Clacton at the time. "I just stuck a pin in a map" he said, "had to get out of that shit" He never did tell me what that was about.

Fuck me - that was an unlucky pin!

Funnily enough - I knew two lads from belfast who lived in clacton. One prod, one catholic. They were good mates. I remember them sitting in the pub swapping stories about throwing bricks at the RUC.

 

[Idris2002]

Ed Moloney on Gerry's little local difficulty:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...boss-gerry-adams-wanted-this-murder-bust.html

El Barbudon is going to play the system like a cheap violin over this one, I think.

 

[likesfish]

Everybody knows he was ira couldnt be head of sein fein with out and couldnt have brought the troubles to an end. Although theres an arguement to be made the whole thing could have be done and dusted in the 70s.

 

[Idris2002]

the whole thing could have be done and dusted in the 70s.

If the south had been a less twisted and dysfunctional society - because the only way the conflict could be ended definitively is via unification by consent, which would have required the 26 counties to be a state people might actually want to join.

 

[likesfish]

Yes but if we get the 6 everything will be grand and perfect
If the tiger had been real that might have worked.
Also the unionists hadnt been bombed enough to at least decide catholics are actually human let alone desrving rights equal or not

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Squaddies, pissed up in Colchester pubs in the 70s used to brag about people they had shot in Ireland. Who knows what was true but I wonder if any of them now aged around 60 are feeling slightly uneasy now none of this seems to be going away? Although I bet plenty of wrong stuff done in the 70s wouldn't have been done if it had been realised it could all be dragged up again well into the next century.

 

[hipipol]

I for one would be very happy were Ireland to be re-united as this event (Adams arrest) has the ability to re-ignite hatreds that lie nano-metres below the surface and given the choice, as I live in London, I would prefer Dublin to be blamed for the madness which is the north and to be bombed rather than me getting blown up again (twice so far, Baltic Exchange and Bishopsgate)
Biased and self interested that view may be but as I have no way of influencing Govt nor Paramilitaries I'd rather not get killed by anyone seeking "justice" via a blood fued

 

[Casually Red]

I mean it's obvious isn't it?

Once he does so, the ones that demand his mea culpa (unionists, police, british politicians, free-state politicians, the meeja) will all say 'Thanks for clearing that up, Gerry old son' and leave him alone, won't they?

I mean nobody would ever point out that as commander he would be held ultimately (and legally) responsible for every action those he commanded took... would they? Surely not.

They would not interrupt him every single time he spoke with a bit of 'what about X?' .... would they? That would hardly seem fair after him doing what they asked.

Even if he openly accepted that responsibility, I'm sure they would not be looking for him to name anybody else, would they?

He wouldn't be remanded in custody for about 700 years, would he?

After all all they want him to do is admit what 'everybody knows', isn't it?

Gerry holding his hands up seems perfectly reasonable to me. We could just draw a line in the sand and move on. Can't think why the Republican Movement has not thought of it before.

e2a some emoticons , in case any one should think this is a serious, rahter than a monumentally stupid, suggestion?

bit of a strawman really . He denies ever having been a member of the IRA, despite being flown out of long kesh on an RAF plane as part of an IRA delegation to Downing street . His term as CS was mercifully shortlived . Its that denial of membership that sticks in peoples throats . And not just the denial of membership but the mad threats to bring libel charges and slander and defamation proceedings against journalists who said he was ever a member . Him publicly stating it was a gross stain on his good character .

ive always felt if there is one thing more bizarre than Adams denials of membership its those lesser mortals rushing to defend him over it .

many other people have admitted they held senior IRA roles. none of them were retrospectively persecuted over it . Adams even admitted having been an IRA member in the barracks in the mid 70s, after the La Mon debacle . They never done him for it then, they arent going to do him for it now and never were . This is the mans inner madness and self delusion your thinking up excuses to defend here . Not any kind of rational well thought out legal tactic . Sadly many good people over the years have fallen into the trap of thinking Adams various directions and delusions are political masterstrokes, because the alternative explanation is just too awful to contemplate and requires a total rewiring of ones thinking . Its happened time and again .

dont let your credibility get dragged down with his as has happened so many others , let him go . The indefensible cant be defended .Hes not even worth it .

 

[SaskiaJayne]

Do you think though, CR that Gerry Adams dearest wish is to be remembered as a great statesman, the man who brought peace to Ireland & this is the reason for his denial of everything rather than just a wish to stay out of jail? I ask this just as somebody who has followed the news over years. Whether or not Liam's op was meant as a troll as it normally is, I thought from an outsider's pov it was an interesting question. I guess most of us taking an interest from England over the years have been rather puzzled the way Adams & McGuinness were obviously top IRA people but have always denied it.

As I pointed out I don't really know anything about any of this apart from what I read etc, but I've followed it from the start & its interesting reading opinions from those who might have first hand knowledge.

 

[dylanredefined]

Squaddies, pissed up in Colchester pubs in the 70s used to brag about people they had shot in Ireland. Who knows what was true but I wonder if any of them now aged around 60 are feeling slightly uneasy now none of this seems to be going away? Although I bet plenty of wrong stuff done in the 70s wouldn't have been done if it had been realised it could all be dragged up again well into the next century.

Yeah well squaddies have depopulated the North twice what with the guys they killed with baton guns and the terrorists buried secretly in the south etc. Eye witness accounts are dodgy at the best of times. Tales told in pubs even more so.

 

[Iolo]

Yeah well squaddies have depopulated the North twice what with the guys they killed with baton guns and the terrorists buried secretly in the south etc. Eye witness accounts are dodgy at the best of times. Tales told in pubs even more so.

Truth and Reconcilation Commission NOW!

 

[Idris2002]

Truth and Reconcilation Commission NOW!

Yeah, right.

 

[LiamO]

All the talk now is the McConville charges no longer being pursued and alternative 'lesser' charges of 'IRA membership' being brought instead.

I would speculate this might be as a result of GA answering their questions with something along the lines of 'I was a member of the IRA. I was proud to be a member of the IRA. I took an oath and will not betray that oath. Fuck you and your questions'.

If that is the case then, bizarrely, Gerry Adams may well emerge from this with his reputation considerably enhanced. Now that would be a turn up.

 

[eoin_k]

Squaddies, pissed up in Colchester pubs in the 70s used to brag about people they had shot in Ireland. Who knows what was true but I wonder if any of them now aged around 60 are feeling slightly uneasy now none of this seems to be going away? Although I bet plenty of wrong stuff done in the 70s wouldn't have been done if it had been realised it could all be dragged up again well into the next century.

I don't think they need loose any sleep; whatever you think of the Shinners, McGuinness has a point about the PSNI's Historic Enquires Team being less enthusiastic in their investigation of murders by agents of the British state.

 

[Casually Red]

Do you think though, CR that Gerry Adams dearest wish is to be remembered as a great statesman, the man who brought peace to Ireland & this is the reason for his denial of everything rather than just a wish to stay out of jail? I ask this just as somebody who has followed the news over years. Whether or not Liam's op was meant as a troll as it normally is, I thought from an outsider's pov it was an interesting question. I guess most of us taking an interest from England over the years have been rather puzzled the way Adams & McGuinness were obviously top IRA people but have always denied it.

As I pointed out I don't really know anything about any of this apart from what I read etc, but I've followed it from the start & its interesting reading opinions from those who might have first hand knowledge.

Being a former IRA man is no obstacle to statesmanship . The late Sean MacBride, founder of amnesty, Nobel peace prize winner, Lenin peace prize winner, international jurist, President of the UN general assembly and all the rest was a former IRA Chief of Staff. He never once renounced what he was. He changed political direction but never once criticised or demonised those who stayed on that path. He often provided valuable legal assistance to them. So Adams desire to be a statesman certainly doesnt justify this ridiculous denial that nobody believes. This worth a full read to grasp what an international statesman dedicated to peace actually looks like. A man of immense stature in that field

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seán_MacBride

If one goes to the British public records office you can happily read the report provided by Phillip Woodfield of the NIO and Frank Steele of MI6 describing their sit down meeting with an IRA delegation comprising the late Daithi OConaill and Gerard Adams in 1972 in co donegal...in fact its on the internet I think. Theres loads of documentary evidence. So the official record completely contradicts his nonsense .

His supporters and those who grew up enamoured with Adams as a man who was extremely clever because he smoked a pipe and posed as an intellectual, so still thinks hes extremely clever. Therefore when he says something completely ridiculous it has to be for a very good reason that only the stupid dont get .

What Adams is engaging in is a delusion. Its similar to that bloke in Once Upon a Time in America, who starts out as a gangster but kills his previous self in order to move around at the height of polite society . What Adams has been doing is an act of self delusion as much as anything else. Hes washing his hands of all the dirty stuff and placing it on others shoulders. Which is why some of those who were the absolute closest to him are so incensed because hes basically declaring it a dirty business that he had no part in . The image hes trying to create and actually make people believe is for purely personal, not political or legal reasons. This is about his own psyche, his own delusions. The statement Gerry Adams has never been a member of the IRA , and will sue you for slander for stating that, sounds mad very simply because it is mad. Its his mania on show to the public. And for the past 20 years virtually all his supporters and spokespersons have had to justify it for him and either engage in his denials as if theyre true or come up with explanations for the denials that simply dont hold any water, and are only speculation on their part.

The mans madness is like one massive credibility whirlpool. the closer you stand to it the more your own gets sucked in . Its like a black hole.

McGuinness does not deny ever being a member of the IRA. He cant anyway, having stated in Dublin court he was proud to be a member and having been photographed in IRA uniform, taken part in IRA press conferences.

 

[Casually Red]

I don't think they need loose any sleep; whatever you think of the Shinners, McGuinness has a point about the PSNI's Historic Enquires Team being less enthusiastic in their investigation of murders by agents of the British state.

well the thing is Sinn Fein made a huge deal about their participation in and support for the PSNI being on the basis of holding it to account . Plainly they are very shit at doing that . Or more precisely the system ensures the PSNI are unaccountable to anyone except the people who run them . Which are to all intents and purposes the British intelligence services. And Sinn Fein have been perpetuating a massive political con on the republican community .
Senior Sinn Fein members sit on the Police Authority . Its their job to ensure the HET do their job . Plainly they are either shit at doing that or they just cant, and they are simply there as window dressing to provide the PSNI with political legitimacy .

 

[likesfish]

If th psni do charge with membership of the ira the whole thing will descend into farce

 

[Casually Red]

If th psni do charge with membership of the ira the whole thing will descend into farce

it always was one

But theres absolutely nothing the shinners can do about it. Theyre way too far down the rabbit hole. No turning back now. They cant turn round now and say their entire leadership strategy, carefully crafted behind their supporters backs from decades ago was a massive mistake. They cant go around now and say this force theyve been publicly supporting, encouraging people to join and pass info to are a shower of bastards afterall. The republicans will have a field day laughing at them . If they withdraw support for them McGuinness breaches his oath of office. Unionists wont sit in government with them, the whole house of cards collapses . The British government stitched them right into it, its a straight jacket.
On top of that if McGuinness even thinks of fucking about the HET will have a good look at him. And they have him squarely by the balls


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Taurus

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...rty-insist-Martin-McGuinness-lured-death.html

this is McGuinness former cheif of internal security spilling the beans









and thats just a sliver of what they have over his head. Gerry Adams current legal dilemma is quite mild compared to what could happen to him

 

[Casually Red]

macstiofain talking about negotiations with the british was er political.

In his day MacStiofain was a national figure, the IRA were a national institution back then. Up there with RTE and the Catholic Church. Unelected sure but part of the national fabric in a major way.

 

[likesfish]

The thing is the armed struggle was always on a hiding to nothing 1500 odd gunmen against 30000plus troops and the south far from enthusiastic militarily it was always going to end poorly.
Politically wasnt much better " hello we want to form a 32 socialist republic , catholic church says no"

 

[Casually Red]

the shinners socialist credentials were little more than rhetoric. McGuinness himself was openly scoffing at the notion by 1987. The Catholic churches objections to the IRA on socialist grounds had evaporated by the 1940s.
It was going to end badly because Martin McGuiness and Gerry Adams had decided to take a deal a very very long time ago and kept their supporters in the dark about it. That meant neither a political or military initiative could ever emerge . Their path was set. Any alternative to it was crushed, anyone who wasnt part of their gameplan sidelined. All that could ever come out of the provos was those 2s future strategy. Which was complete and total ideological surrender followed by the inevitable physical surrender.

this was the former sinn fein president Adams finally ousted predicting exactly were Adams and McGuinness planned to take them, during this fateful gerrymandered Sinn Fein ard feis . One hundred percent correct in that analysis and prediction. This was the day the peace process properly began, while the Libyan stuff was still coming in. It was going absolutely nowhere. A complete waste of time, effort and life.




we have them now !!

btw spot the snake Adams coming in with the fake handshake at the very beginning of the speech. Both men utterly despised each other. Adams was making sure the applause wasnt for his opponent but instead for him shaking his opponents hand, then standing directly behind him and soaking it up. And OBraidaigh knew exactly what he was at . Robbing him even of that. The biggest most pathologically insane ego in the room had to have everything and control everything. Even that bit of applause.