Why do some feminists hate transgender people?

[frogwoman]

Has greer shown any sign of the conspiratorial type thinking that seems to characterise a lot of radfems thinking on this issue? IE that there's a lobby pushing this stuff who are trying to stop people saying the word woman and various other sensationalist and unbelievable claims.

Re the toilet issue, getting rid of gendered toilets entirely could be dangerous (in countries such as india there have been a long struggle trying to get womens toilets as thats one of the main times they are raped/sexually assaulted) but tbh i can't see why its not possible to have three/four types of toilets in a public place, one gender neutral, one womens, one men's and one disabled. And trans people would use whatever one was the most appropriate for them

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Yes Vintage Paw, I agree. And suspect there was never any real disagreement.

As this is urban, would it help if I agree fiercely and robustly? I can add angry faces

 

[Vintage Paw]

Yes Vintage Paw, I agree. And suspect there was never any real disagreement.

As this is urban, would it help if I agree fiercely and robustly? I can add angry faces

Fuck you

*offers cake*

 

[frogwoman]

Lol one of the things i read on a radfem website was that there has never been a school of political thought named after a woman. Er what about thatcherism

 

[Vintage Paw]

Lol one of the things i read on a radfem website was that there has never been a school of political thought named after a woman. Er what about thatcherism

I'd be wary of laying claim to that one too, tbf

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Has greer shown any sign of the conspiratorial type thinking that seems to characterise a lot of radfems thinking on this issue? IE that there's a lobby pushing this stuff who are trying to stop people saying the word woman and various other sensationalist and unbelievable claims.

Re the toilet issue, getting rid of gendered toilets entirely could be dangerous (in countries such as india there have been a long struggle trying to get womens toilets as thats one of the main times they are raped/sexually assaulted) but tbh i can't see why its not possible to have three/four types of toilets in a public place, one gender neutral, one womens, one men's and one disabled. And trans people would use whatever one was the most appropriate for them

Also women could choose to use the gender neutral ones in the face of those bloody massive queues!

When toilets are single cubicles though I see no reason why they shouldn't be unisex. At my significantly female dominated work the single male and female toilets are used like they're unisex anyway!

 

[frogwoman]

Also women could choose to use the gender neutral ones in the face of those bloody massive queues!

When toilets are single cubicles though I see no reason why they shouldn't be unisex. At my significantly female dominated work the single male and female toilets are used like they're unisex anyway!

Yea agreed, when theres a huge queue at the ladies i sometimes go in the mens anyway

 

[Agent Sparrow]

Yea agreed, when theres a huge queue at the ladies i sometimes go in the mens anyway

I can't do that following infant school embarrassment trauma, when I wandered in a daze right into the middle of the boy's loos

 

[Sea Star]

There can be quite a bit of difference between being a tomboy and being very deeply unhappy that you aren't what you really are, iyswim. A child may not have the tools to be able to describe or analyse how they feel, but the pain and alienation can be very real.

From the perspective of hormone blockers, they stop the need for a decision. Doing nothing and allowing puberty to happen is, effectively, doing something. It is making a decision - "live with this biological process, although we won't force you to act in a certain way, you're free to be who you want, but you will have to go through this biological process regardless of its harm. Sorry if it fucks you up, we'll deal with that later."

Hormone blockers are not a transitioning process, they are the removal of the looming biological determination so as to provide space for a child to explore and consider and just exist as themselves for a while. It is a way of saying, "we won't force you to act in a certain way, you're free to be who you want, and you can do so free from additional stresses of puberty. We'll do what we can to prevent the things that can fuck you up, and give you space."

And at that age, it's highly unlikely a family would agree to their child receiving hormone blockers if they weren't already on-board with the idea of their child being who they want.

Hormone blockers don't take away anything, they prevent something from acting on their bodies to automatically start turning them into something they may not be. Once the hormones are blocked, it's down to the parents, the kid, the professionals involved, to give as much support as possible while the child tries to work things out for themselves -- but that's the case whether the child is on blockers or not. Being on blockers just removes something that can be very stressful and damaging from the equation until they're better able to deal with it.

not being able to express my gender at 7, because the laguage hadn't eveolved enough then, and transitioning seemed to be an impossible dream led me to live a non-life for 40 years, the fall out of which is still with me and will be with me for years. I can't imagine anything worse than what i went through - forced to endure a male adolescence and years of being forced to live as a male.

I know exactly how certain trans kids can be about their own gender identity, and to transition at an early age is a life saver. Though a tiny number do change their mind, life would be no harder for kids who transitioned and then changed their minds than it has been on those of us who didn't transiton, and suffered for decades, or didn't make it through.

Not transitioning children will not avoid the problem. We need to give children the language and the choice and trust their instincts. Less mistakes will be made that way.

 

[frogwoman]

Also women could choose to use the gender neutral ones in the face of those bloody massive queues!

When toilets are single cubicles though I see no reason why they shouldn't be unisex. At my significantly female dominated work the single male and female toilets are used like they're unisex anyway!

I think there should be more toilet attendants too for safety purposes like you have in some countries. I dont feel safe going in some of the oxford public toilets even tho they are just single sex.

 

[keithy]

I personally see absolutely no reason why feminism as a debate and movement cannot include binary trans women, cis women AND non-binary trans people... plus of course cis men and trans men.

I also feel that whilst it is ALWAYS wrong to preach hate and transphobic vile, it is still important for us to debate and consider the arguments and concepts put forward by radical feminists as we continue to move forward in the way we treat gender as a society.

There have been plenty of accounts of trans women of the shock of losing the male privilege they had before, and I think those women sharing those experiences is really valuable to us all as they have seen both 'sides' of that binary just in those terms. Those women are definitely welcome in my feminism!

 

[frogwoman]

There should probably more of a view that gender identity (as opposed to sex) is on more of a spectrum because some trans people choose not to have the surgery but choose to have the hormones or vice versa (and some dont want either). It seems to cover a huge range of experiences/identities tbh. It seems like its something quite individual to each person. I could be wrong though and admit im not the best informed but someone like jack monroe could have been quite unhappy if they had had any medical treatment at that age as they don't seem to feel as they fit 'either' gender.

 

[Sea Star]

it comes down to accepting that people have a right to define their own identity rather than have one imposed upon them. this is a fairly basic principle IMO, not something that should be labelled as 'niche'.

yes, its certainly not niche. At least 2% of the population are trans by latest estimate and many others now identifying as non binary or other variations, and this is with most people still afraid to come out of the closet.
And also our view on gender is based on out own experiences - and we are mostly very reluctant to accept we're trans, most of us - and scientifically conducted research which backs up how we feel.
"Wimmin born wimmin" as they describe themselves feel perfectly happy to disregard other "wimmin born wimmin" who identify as men, and the majority of women who do not even identify as feminist.
It's the trans exclusionary view that is niche.

ETA - I just read one report that suggests that young children who exhibit transgender behaviour is as high as 15%.

 

[frogwoman]

I personally see absolutely no reason why feminism as a debate and movement cannot include binary trans women, cis women AND non-binary trans people... plus of course cis men and trans men.

I also feel that whilst it is ALWAYS wrong to preach hate and transphobic vile, it is still important for us to debate and consider the arguments and concepts put forward by radical feminists as we continue to move forward in the way we treat gender as a society.

There have been plenty of accounts of trans women of the shock of losing the male privilege they had before, and I think those women sharing those experiences is really valuable to us all as they have seen both 'sides' of that binary just in those terms. Those women are definitely welcome in my feminism!

This tbh.

 

[keithy]

I think it is a crying shame that we have played the game of binary gender for so long that people even need to have operations to change their sex to feel more comfortable with their gender. I see it as part of my work to encourage people to question that idea of gender being binary so that people can be more comfortable in their body and with their gender identity without having to include their sex in that.

Having a dick doesn't make you male and having a cunt doesn't make you female, so the way we assign gender at birth and then seek to reaffirm it constantly is just ridiculous.

I wish we didn't have this set-up where some people have to go under the knife to feel ok and like their mind matches up with their body. As feminists we should be fighting for those people too as they are also victims of 'gender'!!

 

[Sea Star]

I personally see absolutely no reason why feminism as a debate and movement cannot include binary trans women, cis women AND non-binary trans people... plus of course cis men and trans men.

I also feel that whilst it is ALWAYS wrong to preach hate and transphobic vile, it is still important for us to debate and consider the arguments and concepts put forward by radical feminists as we continue to move forward in the way we treat gender as a society.

There have been plenty of accounts of trans women of the shock of losing the male privilege they had before, and I think those women sharing those experiences is really valuable to us all as they have seen both 'sides' of that binary just in those terms. Those women are definitely welcome in my feminism!

many of us would argue we never had male privilege in the first place. I was never plugged into the patriarchy as I never lived up to accepted model of being male, never identified as male and always felt lost between genders.

 

[keithy]

I hold absolutely no judgment against trans people or anyone who does need to take those drastic steps to 'become' who they are and to match up their own perception and other people's perception and all of these really complicated things. But I judge our society for making it like this.

Trans people are so much more likely to die of violence or suicide than most (if not all, I can't remember the stats) groups of people and that makes me angry and sad and it is more related to our struggles as cis women than some people realise. So yeah. That's my feelings on the matter, but I still think we should debate those arguments put forward by terfs as they have their reasons and their ideas behind it, and some of those ideas about gender are useful to us.

 

[keithy]

many of us would argue we never had male privilege in the first place. I was never plugged into the patriarchy as I never lived up to accepted model of being male, never identified as male and always felt lost between genders.

Yes of course, but many feel that after transitioning they realise the privileges they had because they no longer have them. I wish I could remember the article I read about this which included somebody's account of it.

 

[Sea Star]

I hold absolutely no judgment against trans people or anyone who does need to take those drastic steps to 'become' who they are and to match up their own perception and other people's perception and all of these really complicated things. But I judge our society for making it like this.

Trans people are so much more likely to die of violence or suicide than most (if not all, I can't remember the stats) groups of people and that makes me angry and sad and it is more related to our struggles as cis women than some people realise. So yeah. That's my feelings on the matter, but I still think we should debate those arguments put forward by terfs as they have their reasons and their ideas behind it, and some of those ideas about gender are useful to us.

every time i try to talk to terfs i become depressed and potentially suicidal. It's not a debate many trans women can have because it erases our identity and we are assumed to be men.

 

[Sea Star]

Yes of course, but many feel that after transitioning they realise the privileges they had because they no longer have them. I wish I could remember the article I read about this which included somebody's account of it.

not disagreeing with you, just wanted to represent what i see as a more complete truth.

Whats more interesting to me is the number of trans men who claim to suddenly be experiencing male privilege. It's fascinating.

TBH I'm doing better as a woman because i suddenly have support from women in a largely female work place.

 

[stethoscope]

Oh, I see that tosspot Brendan O'Neill has also waded into this too. That's just what the discourse needed

 

[keithy]

And that seems to be part of what the terfs don't like, is that they see it as a man choosing to 'become' (I am using inverted commas because I feel like a trans person is already the gender they identify with iyswim, there is no becoming) a woman cannot understand or be part of that lived experience of oppression because they chose to let go of their privilege.

But like you say, a lot of people didn't tap into or experience that privilege in a typical way and even if they DID - they still suffer and get trett like shite effectively because of our ridiculous ideas about gender. They suffer too, before and after transitioning, from my perspective.

 

[D'wards]

Being a non-trans man I'm not certain how true this song is, but I find it heartbreaking none-the-less

 

[keithy]

every time i try to talk to terfs i become depressed and potentially suicidal. It's not a debate many trans women can have because it erases our identity and we are assumed to be men.

Exactly, that's why I consider it to be something feminists should be behind you on. Trans women are so important in MY feminism because A) we need to make things better for you B) we need to re-consider gender/patriarchy and the impact it has on lots of different people C) we can learn a lot about the impact our assertions about gender have on people by listening when you talk to us.

 

[keithy]

That makes it sound like I want to use people as fodder or as a specimen to examine but hopefully my point is clear :/

 

[Sea Star]

Being a non-trans man I'm not certain how true this song is, but I find it heartbreaking none-the-less

well, probably true for them. Like everyone else we are a diverse bunch.

Exactly, that's why I consider it to be something feminists should be behind you on. Trans women are so important in MY feminism because A) we need to make things better for you B) we need to re-consider gender/patriarchy and the impact it has on lots of different people C) we can learn a lot about the impact our assertions about gender have on people by listening when you talk to us.

i've been talking to a lot of women about this and they have been pretty much without exception, very interested and very sympathetic.

 

[frogwoman]

I think that the radfems do bring up some valid points but as there is no marxist/class analysis and much of it seems based on an appeal to emotion and a kind of nationalism where the sex/gender becomes the 'nation' and not the race. Are there trans people that have transitioned and regretted it or felt pushed into it by societal pressures? Defo ive read articles by some of them (male and female). Are there issues with over medicalisation/men pretending to be trans to perve on women etc etc? Yep (although if the solutions advocated by a lot of the radfems were carried out they would find another avenue more sanctioned by the State in order to do this).

In the transsexual empire raymond says that genital surgeries and the like should be restricted but i cant see how thats a solution at all and would only lead to more misery and suffering. Even in a communist society where everyone had the same life chances, access to wealth etc etc and gender differences were eliminated completely, you would still get people wanting to change their sex. And it seems to me that in focusing obsessively on this one issue a minority of radfems are going down very dark roads tbh. Its the stuff about lobbies and the idea that 'they' will have certain words be 'banned' and predictions that seem very far fetched on the lines of the 'britain will have sharia law by 2050' sort of model, the arguments are structured upon lines that are very over exaggerated and like anti immigration or 'rothschild banker' type arguments, even if some of the critiques about gender etc are sound.

I dont think that no platforming people like greer is an answer though, some of this stuff does need to be debated as keithy says. I don't think silencing her will convince people already half convinced by that sort of conspiratorialism

 

[frogwoman]

Apologies if i am putting my point across wrongly btw.

 

[frogwoman]

And that seems to be part of what the terfs don't like, is that they see it as a man choosing to 'become' (I am using inverted commas because I feel like a trans person is already the gender they identify with iyswim, there is no becoming) a woman cannot understand or be part of that lived experience of oppression because they chose to let go of their privilege.

But like you say, a lot of people didn't tap into or experience that privilege in a typical way and even if they DID - they still suffer and get trett like shite effectively because of our ridiculous ideas about gender. They suffer too, before and after transitioning, from my perspective.

Yup

 

[Sea Star]

That makes it sound like I want to use people as fodder or as a specimen to examine but hopefully my point is clear :/

yes - it is. Coincides with my views pretty much.